FS7: Viewing Cine EI ISO rating in external monitor

B

bengiles

Well-known member
Sorry, quick numpty question.

I've got a 502 and Sidefinder and I'm running it off SDI2 camera output.

So far, so good - I get all the EVF display info on there.

Anyone know if I can use the L-M-H (gain) switch on the FS7 to view different EIs on the 502 via SDI, in the same way I can on the Sony EVF?

Sorry - probably covered many times before, but I wasn't paying attention.

Thanks.
 
Not possible as the EI value is metadata not understood by anything not made by Sony (and probably also not understood by many things that are ​made by Sony(!) )

If you want to expose a bit right you would either evaluate your WFM (and the image will look a bit light) or if you want the image to look nice you need to make a LUT that is a stop darker than the standard LUT which goes with '2000' ISO cineEI.

If you want to expose left then flip everything said above.

S
 
bengiles said:
Anyone know if I can use the L-M-H (gain) switch on the FS7 to view different EIs on the 502 via SDI, in the same way I can on the Sony EVF?
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Click to expand...

Sure you can.

If you were seeing different EI changes on your Sony EVF -- then you had to be applying a LUT to the EVF, right? So just apply that same LUT to SDI2 and feed that to your 502. Any EI changes you make will be represented in the LUTed output. It ought to be that simple, or have I misunderstood the question?
 
Hmmm.

I did try messing around with that.

Just so we're on the same page, I'm trying to feed SLog3 down the SDI and applying Monitor LUTs in the 502.

Can I put a "blank" LUT on SDI2, so that SDI2 then responds to the L-M-H switch?
 
Doug is right. Remember that EI in CineEI mode works on the LUT itself. So when it is on, then ISO (in this case EI) changes the output.

Turn it on VF, EI changes what you see.

Turn it on internal recording, it is now baking into the footage.

Turn it on external SDI/HDMI, it is now being viewed on ext .device.
 
OK my assumption was that LUTs on the FS7 are complete crap - disabling the WFM, not working in HFR and playback and generally causing confusion.

I then assume that Ben was referring to loading LUTs onto his smallHD and taking a LUTless feed from the FS7.

That lutless feed wont be passing EI in any usable manner - im correct in that.

I guess the others are correct too :)

So you choose..
Lut mayhem and EI
or Lut niceness.

S
 
Seeing as it's your fault I bought this 502, Sam, I'm going with LUT niceness.

Joking aside, yes I've bought the 502 to get around the internal FS7 LUT issues (and to have a half decent EVF.)

So, reading between all the lines, I'll need to generate some EI LUTs for the 502.

Lutcalc?
 
Well this is one of the most back-$sswards thing about the F7 - imo. You can view a waveform while using a LUT via - hdmi / sdi 2 out on external monitor. You just can't do it on the Sony viewfinder unless you are also baking in that LUT on internal recording.
 
Im sure you can find some to download or use lutcalc or just load a LC709 lut onto the DP502 and be done with it.

I expose thus..

Screen One - no LUT huge RGB WFM, and select iris/nd
Screen two, shoot screen, lutted picture

S
 
I expose thus . . .

No MLUTS
No external monitors or costly viewfinders that need to be hung on the camera, powered, and fed a signal.
Just zebras -- that are always ready and reliable in every camera configuration.

Simple and elegant, not to mention accurate and foolproof.
The FS7 is a great camera that does not need to be mucked up with a buch of doodads.
 
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If you are in EI mode you may trip up thus..

-Client goes nuts with wishy image
-Cant focus due to lack of contrast
-no subtlety to your lighting (much better to slide up a dedo slider when viewing with a LUT)
-little concept of your RGB values and to if to choose 3200, 4500 or 5500 with mixed sources.
(here the RGB wfm on the smallHD is excellent)
-tendency to make thin noisy exposures if evaluating off the screen.

The FS7 and DP502 is really a different camera to the FS7 IMO.

S
 
None of those things are of any concern whatsoever to me the way I use the camera, so I guess I am just lucky that I can keep the camera lean and mean and easy to use.

-Client goes nuts with wishy image --- Tell the client they are looking at a undeveloped image or set them up with a monitor of their own with a LUT applied. They can't see a monitor or EVF onboard the camera anyway.

-Cant focus due to lack of contrast --- That's what peaking is for.

-no subtlety to your lighting (much better to slide up a dedo slider when viewing with a LUT) --- Have never seen this issue if you know how to understand LOG

-little concept of your RGB values and to if to choose 3200, 4500 or 5500 with mixed sources --- My lighting is all 5600K and if I am not in control of the lighting, it is easy to eyeball which of the 3 preset to choose.

(here the RGB wfm on the smallHD is excellent) -- WFM tells you nothing without a chart

-tendency to make thin noisy exposures if evaluating off the scree --- I never expose by how the picture looks, that's why they invented zebras.


Obviously everyone is welcome to use the camera however they want and add any accessories they feel the need. I just want to add the counterpoint that not everyone feels all that stuff is necessary or desirable. The camera is great just the way it comes out of the box with the exception of lens support.
 
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For me personally, as always, I use my light meter to let me know how much light I have going where along with measuring key and shadow side contrast ratio of talent, and sometimes ratio of foreground to background etc.. I've become so accustom to this that honestly I can set my lens iris without even having to see the image myself when I have hired cam op and I am focused just on lighting/DP. Not to mention all the other benefits of being able prelight, etc.

Anyway lately I'm shooting with MLUTs enabled in VF and external client monitor because then I know we're seeing the same thing which is helpful. Also I will say that using a WFM with LUT enabled will allow the waveform to be spread over the entire scale (i.e. 0-100%) so you're not looking at typical squashed slog IRE range on about only half the scale of a monitor. For high-key shoots, or shots with bright light sources I've been setting my zebra to 90% just as a check to see where things are landing.

Really there is no one right way about getting exposure, I think what matters is just working in a way that works for the individual which sometime does involve others in the room, etc.. so it's best to be willing to adapt and learn various methods.
 
Dennis, yes that is they key -- everyone needs to find what works best for them. My point is most of the tools and features people need are already built right into the camera itself if people learn to use them. Why spend even a dime on an accessory if it may be unnecessary and may actually hinder the usefulness of the camera? That's all I'm saying. The last thing I want is camera with a bunch of junk hanging off of it.
 
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I agree. Even being a light meter junky there are times I'm not shooting 'fancy' and just have to use the internal tools. i.e. thumbnail WFM and/or zebras.

Doug are you looking at the FS5 at all?
 
Yes, Doug is right, you can switch LUTs on SDI2 and it will reflect changes made in Cine EI. You also get the added benefit on the WFM remaining on even when you don't want it.

*FACEPALM*

LUT's are hopeless on the FS7. I can't believe there's a bloke advocating using them to judge exposure on the 'official' Sony training guide.

*FACEPALM v2*

starcentral said:
For me personally, as always, I use my light meter to let me know how much light I have going where along with measuring key and shadow side contrast ratio of talent
Click to expand...

That's fine if you have calibrated your meter to the camera and are using cine lenses with accurate T-stops, totally hopeless if using stills glass, particularly zooms. It's also fine if you have time to use your light meter. I shoot a lot where I can't even get it out of the bag, so I need tools that give me instant feedback of the whole recorded image.

starcentral said:
Also I will say that using a WFM with LUT enabled will allow the waveform to be spread over the entire scale (i.e. 0-100%) so you're not looking at typical squashed slog IRE range on about only half the scale of a monitor.
Click to expand...

I have an Odyssey 7Q+. One of the great features is being able to switch between WFMs reflecting both the LUT and clean signal. It now has a spot meter tool, which is brilliant.

starcentral said:
Really there is no one right way about getting exposure, I think what matters is just working in a way that works for the individual which sometime does involve others in the room, etc.. so it's best to be willing to adapt and learn various methods.
Click to expand...

Agree, also people need to check their footage. I know lots of guys who shoot, but never go into post.

*FACEPALM v3*
 
starcentral said:
Doug are you looking at the FS5 at all?
Click to expand...

I'm already deep into producing a training video and field guide book for the FS5. If all goes well, the video will be released at the end of January and the book a few weeks later. Please don't ask me anything about the camera though, because I am still learning it and don't wouldn't want to say anything until I have explored it fully. There's already a few things that have surprised me and are different from what some people are saying (or NOT saying) in their offically Sony sanctioned online presentations and reviews. Thanks for asking. It is going to be a grind over the next few weeks to get it done.
 
Doug I agree many set ups work for different tasks.

I used my personal FS7 as a C camera last week - naked with just the 400 2.8 and onboard monitor - the minimal build was great and the director wasn't really monitoring that camera any way.

The (rental) A and B cams are fully built with 'junk'; teradeks and cine zooms. I'm actually thinking of using both the 502 and the onboard monitor as I can monitor clean lutted image with the 502 and check audio meters, TC and the rest with the little monitor. The soundie seems to be paranoid about TC even though we have lockit boxes and a digislate so I tent to have a lot of junk on screen.

I need to keep my personal image as clean as possible to watch for the boom and the A op creeping in to shot as we are cross shooting so Im leaning towards two monitors.

The little monitor is a useful thing and has it's place :)
 
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