Vieuw on XD cam

My message about Xdcam and Hvx200 was deleted...mmm what's happen? Any reason? I've lost a lot time (40 minutes) to write in english that is not my native language...it was so elucidative about problems that film makers community has...I've did my best efforts to translate my italian thoughts and doubts in a clear english. C'mon guys...anyone has moved my message to Hvx200 forum? Right?
Jarred have at least you read my message? Someguy of your fellow (?) moderators has deleted it! Can you refind it? For me it's very hard rewrite it considering I'm not skilled in english language, I had search a lot of words on dictionary to express correctly my thoughts.

Sincerely,

your italian friend Danilo :)

Thanks for your help :)
 
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I think I stated that somewhere on page 1, XDCAM HD uses blue laser disks not Blu-Ray, it is almost the same technology but Blu-Ray is consumer oriented. (Panasonic is advising you to backup P2 with it so it has its own merites)
 
Almost the same yes. But not quite. The XDCAM file system is very robust, and it has a faster read/write speed. The discs are possibly constructed slightly differently as well.

Going back to 2/3" XDCAM HD. It is well known that it is on its way very soon, possibly with dual lasers and multilayer discs.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
It was designed mainly for the industrial and low budget ENG market.
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Unfortunately, I'm afraid so...

The XDCAM HD was not designed for indy moviemaking.
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So...why were they@Sundance presenting the product?!...it doesn't make sense!
 
a SONY HVR-ZIU or a DSR 250? That is the question...

a SONY HVR-ZIU or a DSR 250? That is the question...


Hi and I'm Wayne Kurtz from West Hollywood as I am trying to decide between these two cameras?

Thanks for your ideas as I have read here that the motion blurrring on the HVR-ZIu in the 24 fps mode is a problem...Wayne Kurtz-Media International in West Hollywood at waynecalifornia@yahoo.com and (323) 365-5433.
 
videopal said:

Hi and I'm Wayne Kurtz from West Hollywood as I am trying to decide between these two cameras?

Thanks for your ideas as I have read here that the motion blurrring on the HVR-ZIu in the 24 fps mode is a problem...Wayne Kurtz-Media International in West Hollywood at waynecalifornia@yahoo.com and (323) 365-5433.
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I would post this in the FX1/Z1U forum.
 
Emanuel said:
Simon Wyndham said:
The XDCAM HD was not designed for indy moviemaking.
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So...why were they@Sundance presenting the product?!...it doesn't make sense!
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Amen.

Joe_Digital said:
The point is Sony has the technology and ability to put a better camera on the market that can be cheaper but superior in picture quality than the F900 but chooses not to. They could definitely improve on this camera without much effort -but they have decided to wait to release it a year from now...why? Why not increase the data write speed on the disk and improve the bit rate now?
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Well the answer is completely financial - why make a superior camera for $20,000 when they can sell the one they're currently making for $80,000? Of course a cheaper price would mean more interest and that would translate into more sales, but apparently their minds can't process that much information.

The exact same thing is happening at Panasonic with the AJ-HPC2000. No 24p, no variable framerates. It's not like this is some space-age technology that requires a "dual laser" or a "special disc that hasn't been developed yet" (those Sony chirps are complete BS as it is...) - no, these are things the HVX ALREADY does - and all for $6,000! Why not give us a solution that takes everything the HVX offers and put it in a 2/3" chip package? It's obvious that's what every person on this planet wants! The answer, as always, goes back to the almighty dollar - it would completely canibalize their Varicam sales. And with Sony playing this silly game as well, no one has to cave in because no one is offering better technology at a lower price point. In essence, they help protect each other by keeping their "top tier" equipment limited in functionality extremely expensive.

This holding out by the major manufacturers is insulting to the customer. I wonder if they're even paying attention to what Mr. Jannard & Co. are putting together...
 
why make a superior camera for $20,000 when they can sell the one they're currently making for $80,000?
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How would they make the current XDCAM system record an equivilent or better than HDCAM quality while retaining compatibility with existing XDCAM recording mediums? They are releasing a 2/3" HD XDCAM in the near future. That will complete the HD lineup. A camera for all price ranges.

The exact same thing is happening at Panasonic with the AJ-HPC2000. No 24p
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I thought it did have 24p, but at 720 resolution?

no, these are things the HVX ALREADY does - and all for $6,000!
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No, it records to MiniDV for that price. If you want all the other features you need the P2 cards etc. The HVX also makes a lot of compromises to do what it does. Very clever design solutions. But not ideal.

What all of this boils down to is the lower end of the market being jealous that they can't have a Varicam in their home. If you make decent money with your equipment then the purchase of the higher end cameras is not really an issue. Added to that many pros rent. Not beause of price, but because it allows them to use the ideal camera for any given job, and the latest equipment all the time.

As for Jim Jannard, you may have seen that on DVinfo he stated quite specifically that RED would not be a cheap camera. It would be cheapER, but not cheap, and certainly not below $20k. I fact I think it will be more like $30k. But does that include lenses? Recording device? Mic? Cost of any recording media, solid state or whatever it uses. We just don't know. I think that you will find that the total cost needed to build a RED system will be far more than you might like to think. There also is not a real camera to look at the moment.

At $20k there is Infinity, and XDCAM HD. Both very capable cameras, and no doubt the HPC2000 is as well. Variable framerates are not easy to impliment. The HVX still has to go to 720p to do this, and the XDCAM HD halves the resolution at framerates above 50p (Europe) and 60p (NTSC countries).

But regardless, I have mentioned this on other forums, what the companies do makes business sense. It wouldn't make any business sense at all to have one camera model at a cheap price that does everything.

As a video production company, would you think it would make sense to offer all your services, from a 1 day basic corporate shoot, all the way up to a 4 week 35mm feature film + post for a total cost of $1000? Of course not. But that is pretty much what you seem to be expecting the electronics manufacturers to be doing the equivilent of.

Businesses exist to make money. That is what they do. They exist to make money and to charge for their products the price that the market will pay. You might not like that, but thats how the world goes around. Businesses do not exist to be charities. There also a lot of other factors involved that you would be better off going to a marketing or business school to find out about.

If you want the expensive equipment, work for it.
 
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Simon Wyndham said:
Variable framerates are not easy to impliment . . . and the XDCAM HD halves the resolution at framerates above 50p (Europe) and 60p (NTSC countries).
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Simon: Could you clarify please?
 
Yes. From 1-25fps (50hz countries) or 4-30fps (NTSC countries) the camera is at full progressive scan 1080 resolution. But at framerates above 25fps or 30fps it goes down to 540. However I was told that there is some interpolation that goes on so that when the footage is played back it is very hard to tell that this is the case.

I have been playing around with the 330 today. So far, very nice.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
I thought it did have 24p, but at 720 resolution?
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This is the last update Jan has given us on the product (from 3/21):

At this time the camera is switchable between 1080i and 720P, 60i/60P. It does not look like there is 24P or variable frame rates on its product plan at this time.

To date, there is still no 2/3" HD camera at ANY price (not even announced!) that offers 24p on P2 cards. In my opinion, that's a glaring hole in their P2 system.

Simon Wyndham said:
No, [the HVX] records to MiniDV for that price.
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I really hate this argument. First of all, you can pick up the camera for $5,500 from nearly every reputable dealer in the country and a 4GB P2 card will only set you back ~$650. So yes, you can do everything the HVX is capable of for right around six grand (which is what I said). But even if you want to argue that you need a handful of P2 cards to realistically do what you want to do - let's say you "splurge" and spend $8,000 for your particular needs - that's way less than either the XDCAM HD or new AJ-HPC2000 offerings cost. Yet - surprise! - the HVX is the only one that has all the features.

Simon Wyndham said:
Wat all of this boils down to is the lower end of the market being jealous that they can't have a Varicam in their home. If you make decent money with your equipment then the purchase of the higher end cameras is not really an issue. Added to that many pros rent. Not beause of price, but because it allows them to use the ideal camera for any given job, and the latest equipment all the time.
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I rent all the time, and I've shot Varicam plenty. The issue is not about the pricing structures (which, yes, I do believe are grossly overinflated), but moreso the fact that they aren't even releasing new cameras (specifically tapeless ones) with feature sets that all of us want. If the HPC2000 had 24p, I wouldn't have any problems. But of course it doesn't. So we wait some more...

Simon Wyndham said:
As for Jim Jannard, you may have seen that on DVinfo he stated quite specifically that RED would not be a cheap camera. It would be cheapER, but not cheap, and certainly not below $20k. I fact I think it will be more like $30k. But does that include lenses? Recording device? Mic? Cost of any recording media, solid state or whatever it uses. We just don't know. I think that you will find that the total cost needed to build a RED system will be far more than you might like to think. There also is not a real camera to look at the moment.
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Quite the contrary, he's made numerous posts saying that if he didn't think the camera was attainable by folks on these kinds of forums, he wouldn't waste his time posting here. He's also mentioned repeatedly that the system will be modular, so there isn't one singular price that covers it all; there will be several solutions available. Regardless, RED pricing is pure speculation until NAB so it's pointless to argue about it.

Touching on the fact that there's no RED cam to look at, at the moment, guess what? There's no Varicam II or 2/3" XDCAM HD to look at at the moment either. If RED can put together a package for rent which includes a 35mm-sized sensor, resolution coming out my ears, full variable framerate functionality, the option to use just about any lens I want, any recording medium I want... well, what's my motivation for sticking with the Sony or the Panasonic which are extremely limited in comparison? You're right, we don't know the feature set or the price points for RED yet, but they've guaranteed us that info at NAB which is less than a month away. Is Sony going to release their 2/3" XDCAM HD specs and pricing at NAB... especially considering that their 1/3" lineup JUST came out? I highly doubt it.

Simon Wyndham said:
As a video production company, would you think it would make sense to offer all your services, from a 1 day basic corporate shoot, all the way up to a 4 week 35mm feature film + post for a total cost of $1000? Of course not. But that is pretty much what you seem to be expecting the electronics manufacturers to be doing the equivilent of.
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Your analogy implies that I would charge the same amount for the labor, resources, and time it would take to do a "one-day basic corporate shoot" as I would for a "four week 35mm feature film with post." Obviously that's ridiculous. But whereas there are huge, real costs that separate those two situations, that isn't the case with these new camera offerings. What's the difference between the 330 and the 350 XDCAM models? Besides the SDI out, the only difference is the variable framerate functionality. That's a software enhancement. It's doesn't set them back any more from a raw cost standpoint to implement. This is not the same as the difference between a camera with a MiniDV tape drive and one with a DVCPRO HD deck that literally demands more money due to the physical costs involved in providing it. They are charging more for the variable framerates simply because they can. And yes, of course that's good business sense if they can get people to spring for it. However, they could very well offer the 350 at the 330's price point and be more competitive with their feature set if they wanted to.

Like Panasonic has done by eliminating 24p from the AJ-HPC2000, they have chosen against offering higher end features to protect their upper line. And that's not entirely surprising, considering both of these companies have been marketing their products this way for years. The problem is, they aren't offering ANY tapeless solutions right now that offer all of the features - high priced or not. Most of us thought the AJ-HPC200 would take care of that, but were wrong. It is my impression that companies like RED and ColorSpace, Inc. are also frustrated with being offered cameras that only do half of what they're capable of doing, and are being proactive about making a change.
 
Haakon said:
This is the last update Jan has given us on the product (from 3/21):

At this time the [HPC2000] camera is switchable between 1080i and 720P, 60i/60P. It does not look like there is 24P or variable frame rates on its product plan at this time.

To date, there is still no 2/3" HD camera at ANY price (not even announced!) that offers 24p on P2 cards. In my opinion, that's a glaring hole in their P2 system.
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Is that true about the HPC2000? Jan was talking about the HPC2000? I missed that post. If the HPC2000 press release states that it does "720P," that doesn't mean it can do 24P? I thought for sure that the HPC2000 was Panasonic's 2/3" 24P P2 solution.
 
NBC, the F330 can't compete with the 530/510 in low light. The difference is night and day (almost literally!) The 330 is rated at f9.
 
Quite the contrary, he's made numerous posts saying that if he didn't think the camera was attainable by folks on these kinds of forums, he wouldn't waste his time posting here.
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There are people on these forums and on DVinfo that own high end equipment. :)

Nothing official price wise has been released about Red. We don't even know accurate specs on the whole camera. At the moment it is vapourware.
 
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Danilo Del Tufo said:
My message about Xdcam and Hvx200 was deleted...mmm what's happen? Any reason?
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Was it a message in this thread? Mods can see deleted posts, and I don't see one from you.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
At the moment it is vapourware.
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No, it isn't.

It's a yet-to-be-announced product.

"Vaporware" is something that's been announced and never manages to come out. Like Trinity's Play system, that was vaporware for YEARS.

Red hasn't missed one date, one announcement, one shipment. It's a "coming soon" product. That doesn't qualify it as "vapor" at all.
 
Barry_Green said:
No, it isn't.

It's a yet-to-be-announced product.

"Vaporware" is something that's been announced and never manages to come out. Like Trinity's Play system, that was vaporware for YEARS.

Red hasn't missed one date, one announcement, one shipment. It's a "coming soon" product. That doesn't qualify it as "vapor" at all.
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True, but the fact of the matter is it is not available yet and we don't have a particularly clear timeframe of when it will be available.

And regarding the price, I also remember reading the interview that Simon was referring to where the implied price point was closer to $30k than anything that is currently covered in this forum.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
There are people on these forums and on DVinfo that own high end equipment. :)

Nothing official price wise has been released about Red.
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Well, now we know the price. :) And thank god Jim Jannard has the balls to show the world that "high end equipment" doesn't have to equal "completely prohibitive cost."

Of course, you're absolutely free to make whatever purchases you like, but if the choice I have to make is between a 1/2" $17,000 XDCAM and a 4K $17,000 RED... erm, in my opinion, there really isn't a choice.
 
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