Video Mixer

Jorg3

Jorg3

Member
I need a good (affordable) video mixer, I was looking at the Edirol V-4 but I wonder if anyone knows of another option. Also what is the best setup you can recommend for recording a live show with 3 cameras (1 for musicians, 1 open shot, and 1 closeups). I see that the mixers have composite inputs....is it better to keep everything digital ... editing in computer , avoiding the mixer?

Greets

Jorge
 
That's a good question because I might be doing the same thing.
- What if you don't have the option to do it in post ?
 
>do it in post.

Not always an option. Sometimes you want to burn a real-time DVD of the event and hand it over at the end of the gig. That'll save a lot of hours in post and give the client something they can't get elsewhere.
 
What its for

What its for

Basically, it is for producing DVDs for my University's Cultural Program, every weekend they have concerts, plays, musicals, etc. So it is a bit tiring to do everything in post (because you have little time between events).... It would save lots of time if I could "edit" live, but again with the risks of making an ugly mistake or having less control.

Greets,

Jorge
 
I have to ask:
What camera's are you using?

My fave little switcher is the Panasonic AW-SW350. It's a little pricier than others but hot damn it just works right.

Live work does cost more in resources, but it does save huge on time. You will need more than a Switcher, you'll need monitors, audio gear (even if you do get a house feed), and a deck to record it all - not to mention all the cabling to hook everything up and a com system to stay in touch with your crew.
if you can pull it off, Live is so much fun, and easily beats out the 'fun' of editign multicam, but if you are on a budget them post will give better quality.

Composite will be eaiser, and is still pleanty fine aulity, especialy over distances, if you do everythign else right. I would advise against a firewire based "video mixer" as well, Firewire isn't designed for live work at all.

Just remebere the universal truth: "Good, Cheap, Fast, Pick 2" - It's live, so that is "Fast" picked now you get to choose: good or cheap?


- Mikko
 
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Definatly.


First off, Composite is easier (and much more reliable), not to mention cheaper, to work with.
It has better compatibilety as it is still the baseband TV signal, it's designed for moving pictures in real time.
And [a big one] it doesn't have DV (5:1) compression!

- Mikko
 
mikkowilson,

Thanks for anwering, I dont have the fortune to have a DVX yet, so Im using a GL2 from Canon and a Sony VX2100 (my worst mistake, I have learned now to do research before buying anything). Im curious about what you said about composite. So you get a better image if you grab from composite? DV is compressed? Also whats up with firewire switchers.... didnt the firewire cables topped up at 10 feet or so, and you need lots of hubs, repeaters and such? Is there a reliable way to go wireless? Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks,

Jorge
 
Jorg3 said:
mikkowilson,

Thanks for anwering, I dont have the fortune to have a DVX yet, so Im using a GL2 from Canon and a Sony VX2100 (my worst mistake, I have learned now to do research before buying anything). Im curious about what you said about composite. So you get a better image if you grab from composite? DV is compressed? Also whats up with firewire switchers.... didnt the firewire cables topped up at 10 feet or so, and you need lots of hubs, repeaters and such? Is there a reliable way to go wireless? Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks,

Jorge
Click to expand...

Well, Composite is analog, so it is succeptabel to noise - eventaully a digital signal will look better. But Composite is uncompressed - DV has digital compression right out of the gate. In live you arn't dealing with near as bad generation problems as with editing (whish is why tapes went digital).

And yes, the Firewire (DV cable) spec is a maximum 4.5m (14.7') but cables have improved since then and there are longer - up to aroudn 50' firewire cables available that tend to work ok - but that's it, still prety short camera runs. Also the DV connectors are not very strong and will eventually die on you - the connector is a computer environment, not a video production environment connector like RCA or BNC.

Unfortunatly, as these firewire video mixer companies like Datavideo and Focus fail to mention, digital is not alwas better. Thr right digital signal to replace composite (uncompressed, robust, etc..) is SDI, but the cheapest camera with that is the XL-H1, and then switchers get expensve too.

Unfrtunatly there is NOT a cheap and good way to go wireless. You can try your luck with these wireless home video extender things but they will take a chunk out of your aqulity right off the bat and are very succeptable (read: always have) interfearance problems. Radios suitable for proper live switching are very expensive (thoguh you can rent them for around £300/day...)

Also, I don't think there are too many compatabilety problems with DV today (there used to be) but composite is dead easy and the camera doesn't matter, so you can upgrade them later and the system will still work. :)


For someone looking for "good" quality on a budget, good composite cables and a nice composite switcher is the way to go.


- Mikko
 
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Thanks a lot for your insight...as you may see Im a beginner. :)

So for example, if I were doing this live, which is the best media to store my composite video out? A computer? Uncompressed avi?.

Thanks again and kudos for your site (i've been looking at your work, impressive)

Jorge
 
mikkowilson said:
And [a big one] it doesn't have DV (5:1) compression!

- Mikko
Click to expand...


I don't mean to argue. Well, actually I do. That's not an accurate statement. Anything that comes out of the composite of a DVX (and any camera) will already be compressed. You're not getting some sort of raw feed simply by using the composite outputs of the camera. If this were true then a product such as the Andromeda would be utter foolishness. But it's not true. You are getting an analog signal, which minimizes the sharp edges found in DV footage, but it is still compressed. It is actually lower quality than the digital signal output by the FireWire.

I am not recommending that you use the straight DV output from FireWire for a live event. Composite will be much easier to deal with. I just wanted to correct that earlier statement. Best of luck.
 
Thankyou for your kind words.


Storage medium of course has major impact on your quality.

Basic rules of storage format apply. Uncompressed is best, but may be overkill, BETACAM-SP is definatly a strong option. But realistically, this is often the time to call in DV. My recomendation would be a DSR-11 DV deck - or one of those smaller "DVwalkman" decks (if your shoots are under an hour). Take that composite then store it as DV, simple and easy. - Or then use something as a converter and then store on a computer or firestore type device. - be carefull and dont' go too cheap here, you don't want a crappy digitization.
The good news is that you have a big choice of decks and recorders based on your quality, and duration, need.

Also, if it's not a live broadcast, it's always a good idea to roll tape in one of your cameras too, so that if something does go wrong in master recording you can use that camera footage to patch up any bugs or bad cuts if you need to. I also never realy soley on a computer for the recording.

I did one last year that was a Graduation to a DVD, but we didn't have a logn format tape deck handy, so I converted into my computer and captured with premiere on the fly, as backup I had a S-VHS deck runing in paralell.
I had no touble and the resulting DVD looked fantastic, even through the cameras where a long ways away (some a few hundred feet of cable).


EDIT to touch on the above post:
Analog video has some compression, and most DV cameras have their composite output BEFORE the DV compression. While it is true that the signal is in deed limited by the handwidth of the composite format (and actualy, it's an analog encode similar to "4:2:2" ).
I should have clarified, you are right, no Composite is NOT uncompressed - that's why recording uncompressed is overkill, but it does not have the compression of DV. And the act of decompressing DV and then recompressing again in the mixer will (normally) look worse than switching analog and then doing a high quality DV encode. Again, not huge visible differences either way, and so the ease of composite then wins. Your milage may vary.


- Mikko
 
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