Very worrying fs700 4k acquisition price range

H

Hanad

Member
Hey guys I have read an worrying post on the future of Sony fs700 and priority Sony media. Please read the link below

http://mobi.creativecow.net/readpost/298/1201

Basically it talks about a upgrade price and the priority media SR1TS25[h=1]SRMemory Card (1 TB Capacity) (2.5 Gbps guaranteed write speed)[/h]
$6,056.00 U.S. List Price

I am getting worried...
 
This is completely my opinion so take it as such.

If you purchase the FS700 for 4k acquisition only, then you should
probably have even that extravagant of a budget to properly capture
at 4K. I agree it's potentially expensive however again, if you need
4K I assume the type of work you are doing will justify the cost.

Take the FS700 for what it is today. Looking at what it can do
'later' will lead to disappointment in my opinion. And either way
it's a great FS100 replacement. ND filters alone and then all the frame rates!
It's also got a 1080p down-sampled image! It's an EX1 with DoF, sounds like a dream camera.

My point being if you 'need' 4K $6,000 isn't going to probably be much to you.
Now for other people it's quite expensive. However it was a toy and not a necessity
anyway perhaps...
 
I don't think it is worth looking at the F65 media and getting worried. Sony might use some light compression to get it through the HD-SDI and, in turn, might have cheaper storage and system.

The F65 crew wont cry about it, as they will be looking for uncompressed RAW anyway.

But yea, as stance says... You shouldn't really be buying this for 4K and hoping for a bargain 4K upgrade.
 
stancemedia said:
Take the FS700 for what it is today. Looking at what it can do'later' will lead to disappointment in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Well said. I've said it a thousand times, you should buy something that does what you want, don't buy something that doesn't do what you want and hope hope hope that maybe someday it will change.

If you need 4K today, buying the FS700 makes no sense.

If you need a good 1080p camera with super-slow-mo burst shooting, the FS700 makes a ton of sense.

The 4K upgrade might (or might not) use the SR memory cards. We don't know that yet. We don't know anything about the 4k operation of this camera. Who knows, it might even work with some future $300 BlackMagic SSD recorder -- I mean, as long as we're talking about things that don't exist, that remains a possibility. Or, it might require the SRR3, at $13,000, plus some $6,000 SR memory cards. We don't know.

Point is, it would be foolish to assume that the 4k upgrade will be free or cheap, just like it would be foolish to assume that it will be horribly expensive. The prudent course of action is to -- just wait until they announce it. Assuming won't do any good.
 
I'm not even looking at the FS700 for its 4k feature. 100% of my current work is 1080p on down. Even if the 4k recorder was released along with the FS700 I wouldn't buy it because I don't need it.

Like Barry said, I want the FS700 for its scaled 1080p and High FPS. By the time I need 4k, I should have the extra funds to get it.
 
Jay Birch said:
The F65 crew wont cry about it, as they will be looking for uncompressed RAW anyway.
Click to expand...

The F65 is 16bit 8k compressed RAW at up to 120fps - safe to say it has it's own place which is theatrically released projects and high-end VFX. There is very little in common in my opinion (I have shot with F65)

Like others have already said - if $6k is the cost IT"S CHEAP! This is a business everyone, charge more if you give more. If you can't charge more, give less. I have been around a while, shot with everything, been everywhere doing it. It is painful to watch everyone lose any and all business sensibilities over a new product or technology. Does a wedding need to be shot and posted in 4k? How about a regional spot? Indie film direct to DVD? Think about the enormous success of the Alexa system - it's 2k and it looks awesome on TV and big screen. Resolution is RARELY, if ever, the difference between good and bad motion pictures these days. A good lens that can resolve an MTF of 4k or better is way more than $6k and you need multiple lenses for even a simple project.

Don't spend your career searching for the cheapest possible solutions while hoping to find a real reason to shoot 4k which is inherently high-end territory.
 
Here's what I posted on CreativeCow.

The main question is whether FS700 will output compressed RAW or uncompressed RAW. And what frame rates you shoot. This will affect your choice of media and make it either more or less expensive than RED.

We don't know the answer to this yet. We also don't know if Sony will want to go out to this format or will allow 3rd party options, like Canon does.

Anyway, prices...

- RED's 256gb SSD (which if you use Scarlet. maxes out at 55MB/sec sustained write speed) is $3200.
- if you use Epic, its max data rate is 225MB/sec.

- Sony's SRMedia 256gb S15 with 192MB/sec sustained write speed is $1400.

- Sony's SRMedia 256gb S55 with 700MB/sec sustained write speed is $4300.

OR

- RED's price on 1TB of SSD media is $9950 for a 256GB 4-pack.

- Sony's price on 1TB fof SSD media is $5700 for a 320MB/sec SSD (can write full 18 megapixel 3.2:1 compressed RAW files at 24fps from a F65.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce,

In my opinion RED is a science experiment compared to Sony so I would not make my choice based on price. RED has really come a long way, so I would not bash them for the enormous effort and very significant successes. I just like that I have never purchased a Sony camera that did not get the job done right out of the box. I have paid big bucks for that, but I am ok with paying for simple and robust and reliable systems.
 
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stancemedia said:
Take the FS700 for what it is today. Looking at what it can do
'later' will lead to disappointment in my opinion. And either way
it's a great FS100 replacement. ND filters alone and then all the frame rates!
It's also got a 1080p down-sampled image! It's an EX1 with DoF, sounds like a dream camera.
Click to expand...

Agree totally - pre-ordered from Able Cine and can't wait.
Spoke with Olof who also has one on order and will be working on new accessories asap.
FS700 has what I need right now - I'll think about 4K when it's ready.

Regards,
Scott
 
I think the figures from the article are kind of blown out of proportion. Also, comparing a Scarlet to an FS700 is like comparing apples to oranges. If your main need is 4K in 24fps, then the Scarlet is for you, because in reality, it's really only a 24fps camera. If you shoot 60fps on the Scarlet, it becomes a 3.25x crop camera which is difficult to work with IMO unless you are shooting wildlife or want extreme close up style shots. At 120 fps, it's a 6X crop, which is really useless. So yeah, it's really a 24 fps camera.

The FS700 is very flexible and also much ligher than the Scarlet and much better in low light, so obviously it's very versatile, which is key for me since I usually work with a small crew and a lot of times for gathering B-Roll, I just go solo, so versatility is important.

Also, I really mainly need a HD camera. The only reason I would need 4K is because we have a large green screen at work. But working with numerous RED Raw files over the past 4 years or so, working with 4K RAW in post is NOT fun and it takes a lot of storage and working in programs such as After Effects, render times increase dramatically.

I would actually prefer if Sony gave options for the recorder. What if it could do 2.5K RAW? Or even Pro-Res 444 at 2.5K or 4K instead of just RAW? That would make the post production process way smoother and faster than working with 4K RAW, especially if it's uncompressed 4K RAW which is about 1TB of space per hour of footage. That's insane amounts of storage.

Even a 2.5K image allows for a pretty good amount of re-composing in post. Plus, then, the current still camera lenses that most people are probably going to use with the FS700 would probably work pretty good. I'm just hoping for codec options on the future recorder, because for me, a fast post workflow is really important.

For me, I'm getting the FS700 because even for HD, it's probably the best camera out right now for the price. At $8K, you get crazy frame rates, clean HDMI out, amazing low light and a really solid image. Nobody else is even making something that awesome in that range. Plus, it's future proof, but that's not something I'm really worried about. I'm just getting it for what it is right now.

Back to the article that was referenced. If you need really 4K RAW then get the Scarlet, but if you want something more versatile and am not so worried about the future and want to save a bit of money, then get the FS700
 
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The CC link in the OP is negative, and very loaded (just look at the "heading" titles in it).

Also, who says the FS700 will use/require F65 modules and media? That's a poor assumption IMHO.

Wouldn't base my purchase decision on an FS700 NOW on these leaps of logic and negative musings.

If you need 4K right now, the FS700 isn't for you. If you want a great 1080p camera now with high frame rates and an upgrade path - it's just the ticket.
 
Technology also moves fast. Who knows, by the time the 4K from Sony comes out, maybe the competition might have something similar, thus forcing Sony to drive the price down. Unlike the last few years, this year there are so many cameras that prices are just going to fall and features will increase.
 
If the 4K unit - whatever it will be - is too expensive to buy, rent one. Then charge it to the client, if they really want 4K.
I'm sure there'll be an entrepreneurial rental house that will have some future 4K units.
 
Do you guys think that the 4K unit might be something that 3rd parties (like Atmos) can replicate for less money?

I've read somewhere that the firmware upgrade is going to be free, but the recorder is going to cost probably quite a bit. But yeah, renting sounds like a good idea. Although if the recorder offered options along with 4K RAW like Pro-Res 444 or 2.5K RAW, it might be really enticing to buy.
 
Nobody can possibly know until Sony introduces how they're going to output 4K. Convergent Design already has announced a 4k RAW external recorder, maybe it'll work with the Sony, who knows? Even so, it probably costs about as much as the FS700. The non-raw Gemini costs $6,000 already, presumably the raw version will cost more.
 
I really don't get what all the flapping is about here...

We already know that the FS700 does NOT record to SR cards -- it has an SD slot. We already know that the 4k will be output to SDI only, for an external recorder, and we already know that the Ki Pro Quad will have an MSRP of $3,995 US. We also know that the Ki Pro Quad will record to SSDs, and we know how much they cost.

http://www.aja.com/en/articles/175/

So where's the uncertainty?

It's true that we can't know at this point whether the Ki Quad will plug directly into an FS700; but I think it's obvious that AJA will be working very hard to make it compatible, maybe with an update. They may already be working with Sony for all we know.

The only real uncertainty is the cost of the FS700 firmware update. Personally I'm betting on free, since it doesn't look to me like the FS700 has the copy protection it would need to support a paid update. But even if it's $3,000, we have:

FS700: $8,000
Update: $3,000
Ki Quad: $4,000
TOTAL: $15,000

Compare to about $16,000 for a Scarlet.

Then you have SSD media at $1,080 per terabyte: http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-2-5-I...JL3Y/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1336403539&sr=8-9

As opposed to RED media at $12,800 per terabyte: http://www.red.com/store/products/redmag-ssd

Add in the cost of batteries for a day's shooting on either camera, bearing in mind the huge difference in both battery cost and run-time, and you have a clear win for the FS700 -- by close to $14,000 for a serious shooting kit. If I'm right and the firmware update is free, even better.
 
Convergent Design has been certified for Arri Raw, I'm sure they will want to work with upcoming Sony Raw format also. Just don't expect inexpensive, not for several years at least. I think Sony has realized that working with 3rd parties is good for business.
 
A nice option would be a SSD shuttle that pops into the camera instead of the FMU - don´t know if the connection is fast enough though.
 
Postmaster said:
A nice option would be a SSD shuttle that pops into the camera instead of the FMU - don´t know if the connection is fast enough though.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's possible... not only in matter of speed (3G SDI probably is only a choice here ), but also the power consumption... seems like fast SSD drives need a lot of power compare to SD-cards... I'm not sure.. but ...
 
Let's see: a Crucial 512GB drive uses 280 mW active; Toshiba quotes 60-80mA typical power usage for their UHS1 32GB SD cards, which at 3.3V is 198 mW - 264 mW. So on the face of it the SSD uses 1/15th the power per GB!

http://www.crucial.com/pdf/Tech_specs-letter_Crucial_m4_ssd_v9-22-11_online.pdf

http://www.toshiba-memory.com/en/sd_cards.html

Hmmm, something wrong here??? Although it could make sense -- the bulk of the power usage is writing, and you only write one page at a time no matter how big a drive is.

Basically SSD drives contain the same stuff as SD cards, just more of it in a package. There's a more sophisticated controller, and presumably large RAM buffers, top allow for faster random access -- flash memory typically reads and writes 4-8 MB at a time -- but apparently that doesn't make too huge a difference.
 
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