vertical camera moves

R

rob norton

Veteran
I recently shot an architecture project and wanted the camera tilted completely up (90 degrees), while moving vertically. I only had access to a compact jib and was disappointed by how much fore/aft travel there was from the arc of the jib. I know plenty of people have used jibs for seemingly vertical moves in the past etc. but this is special application territory, where it'd be great to have only vertical movement.

Is the towercam the only product of its kind? https://www.hotheads.tv/towercam_xl.php#

Repurposed/outside the box thinking welcomed, to sum up:

- perfectly straight vertical line. I'd give up the ability to go from low to high if it means much more basic tech that doesn't need to fight gravity, essentially a slow-ish fall would work.
- a vertical slider won't work because the track will be in shot. I don't even want to think about what a vertical slider with offset arm/counterweight would look like!
- 6 feet of travel - this distance based on the 7 feet of travel from the jib, which I've always been happy with.
- lightweight canon c200 package (under 7kg/15lbs).

A drone with the camera above the propellors would be perfect for this. I've seen drone mods which change camera positions under the aircraft or attach different cameras, but I'm not sure if I've seen a camera on the completely opposite side of where it normally is. Even a very lengthy, single riser air cushioned stand would work but I don't think the product exists because it would make for an awful actual light/whatever stand.
 
Depending how wide your lens is, you might be able to use a studio photo stand. I'm not sure how smooth they are, since they were designed for photography, but you might be able to borrow one if you know any packrat photographers. I helped my dad move his to storage, and it weighed a ton, it literally had lead counter weights.

Another crazy idea, put a MFT or APS-C camera with a pancake lens on a Shur-Line paint pole. That paint pole has a cool extension feature, and you'd have have to watch the video in order to understand.
 
Mount camera on gimbal, then mount gimbal to a plank, speedrail or any other type of lightweight support that is at least 6' long. Have one grip at either end, holding it via handles. Start with it at floor level, then the grips lift it up and end with it over their head (for extra height, they can step up onto an apple or set of steps if more ambitious). The gimbal will take out whatever angular deviation is caused by the sides not being lifted completely synchronized.

In theory there are more complicated versions of this that would involve towers (stands) on either side with pulleys at the top of each, with rope or cable attached to a platform under the gimbal, and then pulling the cables from either end to lift the platform. But this would be quite a build for the desired effect. This is incidentally the basic principle of the Skycam.
 
Rob,
I believe you could do this with the Rhino slider system:
https://rhinocameragear.com/pages/slider

Might need some extra gripping peripherals, but unless I'm misunderstanding your description, the high torque motor for the slider allows for vertical moves and the Arc V2 motorized head can tilt 90 degrees.
While I don't currently have the high torque motor for vertical, I do have their slider system and use it all the time for horizontal moves for architecture / home interiors.
 
markfpv said:
Rob,
I believe you could do this with the Rhino slider system:
https://rhinocameragear.com/pages/slider

Might need some extra gripping peripherals, but unless I'm misunderstanding your description, the high torque motor for the slider allows for vertical moves and the Arc V2 motorized head can tilt 90 degrees.
While I don't currently have the high torque motor for vertical, I do have their slider system and use it all the time for horizontal moves for architecture / home interiors.
Click to expand...

5 lb payload for vertical? Heck, my YC Onion motorized slider can do 8.8 lb payload for vertical. I love it. The fastest speed is pretty slow but it's fine for me because I only use it for detail work where a slow speed is desirable. Anything wider is on gimbal.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1705835-REG/yc_onion_ydc009_hotdog_se_motorized_slider.html

Here's a video shot with that slider: https://f.io/Grd-PNU4

But I think the Rhino slider track is still going to be in frame at the bottom of the move if you're pointed straight up?
 
Thank you everyone, here are some thoughts in response:

QuickHitRecord said:
What about the C-Pan Arm?
Click to expand...

That's not bad, hard to tell but it looks like the bottom part of the move would still have the tripod head/arm in shot, leaving you with a pretty small amount of travel.

Imamacuser said:
Depending how wide your lens is, you might be able to use a studio photo stand. I'm not sure how smooth they are, since they were designed for photography, but you might be able to borrow one if you know any packrat photographers. I helped my dad move his to storage, and it weighed a ton, it literally had lead counter weights.

Another crazy idea, put a MFT or APS-C camera with a pancake lens on a Shur-Line paint pole. That paint pole has a cool extension feature, and you'd have have to watch the video in order to understand.
Click to expand...

The studio stand looks interesting, I've never seen that before. But I think to avoid the main pole being in the frame, the horizontal bar would have to be a lot longer.

I like that thinking with the painter pole! A beefier version which retracts/extends a bit slower and from only one end would work.

ahalpert said:
Maybe it's an air-cushioned stand with multiple sections and 2 people to hold and lower the sections

Maybe a crank handle light stand like this one which has 80" of height adjustment - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ing_stand.html

I don't know how smooth the movement would be but if you have some stabilization elsewhere in the pipeline it would probably be fine
Click to expand...

Re air cushioning, if there was a riser long enough, after throwing away the first part of the shot before properly settling into the rest of the move, I'm sure that would work. I think the issue would be transitioning from one riser to the next, where someone would have to hold the weight of everything while being unlocked, then let go without shaking the stand as the process happens again until you've reached the bottom. It seems like pretty basic technology, I have no idea if it simply scales up with increasing payloads though. Plus it seems like a pretty big DIY project (a single, lengthy, beefy riser from scratch), probably not worth it.

CharlesPapert said:
Mount camera on gimbal, then mount gimbal to a plank, speedrail or any other type of lightweight support that is at least 6' long. Have one grip at either end, holding it via handles. Start with it at floor level, then the grips lift it up and end with it over their head (for extra height, they can step up onto an apple or set of steps if more ambitious). The gimbal will take out whatever angular deviation is caused by the sides not being lifted completely synchronized.

In theory there are more complicated versions of this that would involve towers (stands) on either side with pulleys at the top of each, with rope or cable attached to a platform under the gimbal, and then pulling the cables from either end to lift the platform. But this would be quite a build for the desired effect. This is incidentally the basic principle of the Skycam.
Click to expand...

This would definitely work! I'm assuming speed rail/plank vs. box truss to keep weight down, or you'd probably only get a couple of takes? I don't need to have the camera on the ground for the shot I have in mind, but if the camera had to start on the ground, then would it just be a matter of lifting the rig to the vertical position in some type of curve, before proceeding with the shot you described.. a gimbal would be essential here to allow you to maintain the same tilt angle.

Separate question but with the tower set up, for example with a more forward facing shot vs. extreme tilt up, when would you use this vs. a jib or crane? When you have access to width but not depth?

morgan_moore said:
A 'proper' dolly will do this (chapman peewee whatever) with a L bracket on the head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=786dP7vl7_8&t=221s
Click to expand...

That hydraulic vertical move is so satisfying to watch! The arm separate to the rest of the dolly but with same travel, smaller payload capacity, and not silent would be perfect (in terms of where you could save money for a commercial product). Do you experiment with hydraulic arms as in off the shelf pieces or there's a lot more to it than that?

markfpv said:
Rob,
I believe you could do this with the Rhino slider system:
https://rhinocameragear.com/pages/slider

Might need some extra gripping peripherals, but unless I'm misunderstanding your description, the high torque motor for the slider allows for vertical moves and the Arc V2 motorized head can tilt 90 degrees.
While I don't currently have the high torque motor for vertical, I do have their slider system and use it all the time for horizontal moves for architecture / home interiors.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark, I've heard good things about the rhino, but don't think it would work without being in shot.

ahalpert said:
5 lb payload for vertical? Heck, my YC Onion motorized slider can do 8.8 lb payload for vertical. I love it. The fastest speed is pretty slow but it's fine for me because I only use it for detail work where a slow speed is desirable. Anything wider is on gimbal.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ed_slider.html
Click to expand...

The onion hot dog? They're not even trying.
 
rob norton said:
Separate question but with the tower set up, for example with a more forward facing shot vs. extreme tilt up, when would you use this vs. a jib or crane? When you have access to width but not depth?.
Click to expand...

I can't really think of a need to use this set up if you were pointed normally, it's just a lot of complication and build for something that is covered fine with existing tech. For shorter moves, dolly--for longer ones, an arm (probably a scoping arm, but if that wasn't available we might put the chassis on track and compensate for the arc of the arm).

I needed to do something like a complete reverse of this shot some years back, where the camera was pointed straight down and was to lift up and away but in a very straight line. I had the grips mount the head to a platform and attach cables at each corner, with a line fanning out from each corner to a pulley up in the grid. The lines were then tied together so they all pulled the platform at a level and uniform angle, and a set of sandbags acted as counterweight tied to the line. Two grips pulled on the lines and up it went, perfectly smoothly and evenly. This approach of course would not work for the original shot because of having to look straight up.
 
ahalpert said:
But I think the Rhino slider track is still going to be in frame at the bottom of the move if you're pointed straight up?
Click to expand...

I guess I assumed it wouldn't be a wide shot - and you could build out the camera away from the carriage - with other grip tools and then attach a gimbal the way - the hot dog (yeah, I coundn't get past the name either, Rob) shows it....

1653054326_IMG_1759231.jpg​
 
CharlesPapert said:
I can't really think of a need to use this set up if you were pointed normally, it's just a lot of complication and build for something that is covered fine with existing tech. For shorter moves, dolly--for longer ones, an arm (probably a scoping arm, but if that wasn't available we might put the chassis on track and compensate for the arc of the arm).

I needed to do something like a complete reverse of this shot some years back, where the camera was pointed straight down and was to lift up and away but in a very straight line. I had the grips mount the head to a platform and attach cables at each corner, with a line fanning out from each corner to a pulley up in the grid. The lines were then tied together so they all pulled the platform at a level and uniform angle, and a set of sandbags acted as counterweight tied to the line. Two grips pulled on the lines and up it went, perfectly smoothly and evenly. This approach of course would not work for the original shot because of having to look straight up.
Click to expand...

I use rubber band for the movements I need, the result is very good
 
markfpv said:
I guess I assumed it wouldn't be a wide shot - and you could build out the camera away from the carriage - with other grip tools and then attach a gimbal the way - the hot dog (yeah, I coundn't get past the name either, Rob) shows it....

Click to expand...

yes, it's a preposterous name. but what's in a name...

building away from the carriage should work although I guess it depends on how wide your frame is. I actually use my slider exclusively with a gimbal on it for remote control (and speed of not having to level, plus additional stabilization). but the units I use are very short, usually the rs3 mini. to minimize potential swaying of the column. of course, the yc onion is only 47" whereas he wants 5'

did no one think using a crank-handle light stand could work in a pinch? assuming you can speed up and stabilize the move in post?
 
CharlesPapert said:
I can't really think of a need to use this set up if you were pointed normally, it's just a lot of complication and build for something that is covered fine with existing tech. For shorter moves, dolly--for longer ones, an arm (probably a scoping arm, but if that wasn't available we might put the chassis on track and compensate for the arc of the arm).

I needed to do something like a complete reverse of this shot some years back, where the camera was pointed straight down and was to lift up and away but in a very straight line. I had the grips mount the head to a platform and attach cables at each corner, with a line fanning out from each corner to a pulley up in the grid. The lines were then tied together so they all pulled the platform at a level and uniform angle, and a set of sandbags acted as counterweight tied to the line. Two grips pulled on the lines and up it went, perfectly smoothly and evenly. This approach of course would not work for the original shot because of having to look straight up.
Click to expand...

Wow, what a set up, thanks for the details.

Have you ever seen a technocrane pointed straight up? They can't tilt 90 degrees on a normal dolly platforms, it'd need to be mounted 90 degrees, or at least couldn't be flat. But just wondering if anyone's mounted one to the side of a building (with the building/windows in shot) or other incredibly strong fixed structure.

I'm going to do some more testing with the jib. I've got the kessler k-pod, which goes from 37"-64". I've been using it in its lowest setting, but raising the height will let me keep the jib arm in a more horizontal range, giving a "straighter" part of the arc, rather than starting too far above horizontal, which obviously means a more rapid departure from the line. It still wont' be the perfect line but might be good enough. I can't share the example yet but will soon.

ahalpert said:
did no one think using a crank-handle light stand could work in a pinch? assuming you can speed up and stabilize the move in post?
Click to expand...

I haven't tested but I think the micro jitters would be too much. And speed ramping isn't ideal with trees in the wind or water etc, when the desired look is usually slow motion.
 
Id been thinking of countering the jib arc with a dolly move as cp notes.
i think it would be hard to do
maybe a laser line guide for the operator would help
would cropping out the arc effect in post work?
one time where 8k might help.

H with two upright sliders could keep the frame clear bit would be a counter mass hell of a construction.

Simplest maybe a hydraulic lift cylinder i sont know if they are smooth or long enough
Google linear actuator?
 
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