VDSLRs out of reduser
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Nitsuj
Well-known member
Well they can't expect to announce specs of a product several years before it is released and not expect the competition to act on it. Especially when they are a young small business going up against Corp Giants. It was their fault.
I don't know how worried they are. Rather I think from a post made by Jim Jannard, that they just don't really understand why RedUser became a place to talk about Canon DSLRS.
I get it...I mean a lot of people identify with the whole rebel feel of Red without being able to afford one, lots of folks are waiting for Scarlet and playing with the Canons meantime, but I also understand their point of view, there isn't really a lot in common between Red and a 7D and IT is the RedUser forum...
We've always got DVX!
I get it...I mean a lot of people identify with the whole rebel feel of Red without being able to afford one, lots of folks are waiting for Scarlet and playing with the Canons meantime, but I also understand their point of view, there isn't really a lot in common between Red and a 7D and IT is the RedUser forum...
We've always got DVX!
Ian-T
Veteran
If they are "really" worried then they should be. I understand that they are entirely different cameras aimed at an entirely different audience....but tell that to the many folks (would have been an early Scarlet adopter/customer) who have already convinced themselves that these DSLRs are enough of what they need. Sure...in many ways Scarlet will be something better than what most folks in this price point has ever used....but after playing with these DSLRs many of them are going to question whether or not it is worth the trouble (especially knowing that the competition will have expanded their cameras capabilities by the time a working Scarlet is in some consumer's hands).
SO, I agree with Nitsuj.
And what's wrong with discussing this on RedUser? Or anywhere else? More than likely it's from folks who would have bought a Scarlet had it been available. SO it's bound to come up.
SO, I agree with Nitsuj.
And what's wrong with discussing this on RedUser? Or anywhere else? More than likely it's from folks who would have bought a Scarlet had it been available. SO it's bound to come up.
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's exactly the point. I don't think the DSLR is going to hold a candle to the S35 Scarlet when it comes out, but -- do you need that candle? At $1250 for a GH1, or $1700 for a 7D, does it come close enough that you don't need to wait for the Scarlet anymore?
For some folks it's a resounding no, the DSLR doesn't do enough. But for indie DVXUsers, lots and lots of them are finding that yeah, there's not really any reason to wait any longer. No the DSLR isn't perfect, but if it's "good enough", then -- it's good enough.
Heaven knows I've griped about the shortcomings of the DSLRs, but I also think that they totally chopped the 2/3" Scarlet's legs right out from under it. A 2/3" Scarlet will have to be something very, very special to woo people away from the DSLR at this point.
I think the S35 Scarlet will be a totally different beast and will appeal to a different segment of the market (which is primarily the segment that has up to now been buying Red Ones) but the 2/3" Scarlet has probably had a lot of its lunch eaten for it by the DSLRs.
Scarlet will be better, I have no doubt. And it will do more things, I have no doubt. The question the buyer faces is: do you need those "more things"? If not, the DSLR is very tempting at under $2,000 and available now.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Yeah it just comes down to the bells and whistles. I think the Scarlet is going to have better functionality but is that functionality really worth that huge jump in cost? The HDSLRs are going to be comparable in picture quality because no matter how you slice it both systems use Bayer filtering. Sure you got your codecs to compete with but it will be a matter of short time before the HDSLRs have Live HDMI out and it will just boil down to the sensor. From what I see of the sensor specs in the scarlet I don't think it can hold up long to a new wave of cheap HDSLRs with Live HDMI using something like the Nano Flash. And the public knows that is going to happen very soon so why buy the Scarlet at that point? The bells and whistles can be nice but the core essence of filmmaking isn't really about those either. If you can get a great image for a cheap price at a sacrifice for variable frame rate I would go with the cheap image quality myself.
RED will start to loose it's high end competition too if it sticks to its Bayer filter sensor and doesn't get in a sensor comparable to the Genesis or F23/F35. It won't be long before those start running off the assembly line in bulk which will also drive the price down. Least that is how I vision the near future in a couple of years. That is if we all live past 2012 according to some people out there.
RED will start to loose it's high end competition too if it sticks to its Bayer filter sensor and doesn't get in a sensor comparable to the Genesis or F23/F35. It won't be long before those start running off the assembly line in bulk which will also drive the price down. Least that is how I vision the near future in a couple of years. That is if we all live past 2012 according to some people out there.
Barry_Green
Moderator
For many of us, oh yes.
No way -- the Scarlet should mop the floor with the DSLRs. True imaging with no line-skipping, moire, or chroma aliasing, full 1080p resolution, and up to about 11 stops of dynamic range instead of 8. And redcode should be absolutely mud-free.
I don't mind if people say "hmm, my 7D looks good enough to me" but I get bent out of shape when information is presented as factual when it isn't (such as "the 7D is just as good as the Red One.") Simply not true no matter how it gets sliced.
I think the DSLRs do a great job for their price point. But only because the price point is so low. There's much better possible, and you can prove it to yourself. Set up the camera on a tripod and shoot some video. Then stop it and take a still photo, at maximum quality. Then take a frame grab from the video footage, and put that up against your still photo (after downconverting from full-res to 1920x1080). There's a huge difference, and the Scarlet is supposed to be delivering images that look like the downconverted still, not like the frame grab.
Here is where I heartily disagree. The sensor is the whole point of why the Scarlet is different. The ability to scan it at a full 60fps, versus the DSLR's limit of 8fps, makes all the difference in the world when it comes to image quality. If you spew a line-skipped, pixel-binned, aliased purple/green moire'd image out of the HDMI port and record it on the Nano, you're going to have a line-skipped, pixel-binned, aliased purple-green moire'd image recorded in all its line-skipped, pixel-binned, aliased purple/green moire'd glory.
It all falls under the garbage-in, garbage-out. The sensors in the DSLRs were never designed to do video, video is a hack on the DSLR and it results in all sorts of compromises.
Then again, many folks simply don't see the problems, or don't care. And at $1250 for a GH1, or $1700 for a 7D, I can definitely see their point.
And so will many others. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it's the same though. You're compromising image quality to save dollars. And as long as you're happy with the compromise, go full speed ahead.
Why? Genesis and F35 use RGB Stripe, not Bayer, but it's largely the same basic technology -- a monochrome sensor using color filters over certain pixels, then de-mosaic'ing or de-striping it to create color imagery. The main difference is that with the RGB Stripe, it's optimized to produce 1920x1080 final video. The Red's approach lets them get their 4K (3.2K) image.
Any time you're working with a single sensor, you're going to need a color filter array over it (whether Bayer or RGB Stripe). Neither technology is obviously superior to the other, they're horses of a similar breed, just a different focus on the end product. The F35 was never designed to deliver more than 1920x1080, so the RGB Stripe works perfectly for it.
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Nitsuj
Well-known member
Well yeah it is technically going to be superior. I just think the image quality isn't going to be so superior to make up for the cost if you put them side by side. I have a feeling people are going to be expecting a magical camera that will make all their stuff look good when in fact it never was about the camera. So with that in mind then why will young new filmmakers go for the more expensive camera? So if you take Joe the filmmaker with an HDSLR and Jed the filmmaker with a Scarlet then have them go off and make something is the outcome going to be that much greater than the other based on the image the camera produces? I bet there are not a lot of audiences out there that would be able to spot the movie that had no line-skipping. So a new filmmaker might just take that idea and run with it which in turn is not good news for Scarlet.
Now the RED from what I understand it is not actually producing a 4K image and I seem to recall reading somewhere it is not true RGB either. However everything I have said is purely prediction and not stated as fact. It's just prediction there Barry. Trust me I'm with ya not agreeing when people say it is just as good as a RED when it isn't... technically speaking of course. Give Roger Deakins an HDSLR and a new film student a RED then I am putting my money on Deakins any day. Now I gotta go out and celebrate my B-Day and continue this thought tomorrow.
Now the RED from what I understand it is not actually producing a 4K image and I seem to recall reading somewhere it is not true RGB either. However everything I have said is purely prediction and not stated as fact. It's just prediction there Barry. Trust me I'm with ya not agreeing when people say it is just as good as a RED when it isn't... technically speaking of course. Give Roger Deakins an HDSLR and a new film student a RED then I am putting my money on Deakins any day.
Now I gotta go out and celebrate my B-Day and continue this thought tomorrow.Barry_Green
Moderator
But... Justin... we've been at this point since at least 2003. Once we got consumer-priced 24p video, that was it -- we've had Oscar-nominated films shot on a standard-def DVX. Anyone who thinks a DSLR, or a Scarlet, or a Red, is going to do *anything* for them or their career is either a) ignorant, b) brainwashed, or c) a rental house.
The gear is already here, and has been for nearly a decade. And, it could be argued, it's been here for a lot longer than that. Rodriguez didn't wait for a Scarlet. Kevin Smith didn't wait for the Scarlet. Spike Lee didn't wait for the Scarlet. Steven Soderbergh, the biggest Red fan out there, didn't put his career on hold until the Red One came out.
Which is pretty much what I said when the GH1 became available. I think I'm looking forward to a Scarlet more than just about everyone here, because my pickiness won't settle for what the DSLRs can do, but then I turn around and look at "Depth of Phil" and "Shady, Texas" (two projects we shot on the GH1) and they're absolutely gorgeous, so ... yeah...
... why are folks waiting again? For what? What is it, that this new gear is going to do, that James Longley didn't do on a DVX100 when he got his TWO Oscar nominations?
It's not, it's 3.2K.
It's not 4:4:4, it's closer to 4:2:0, is probably what you read.
Wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the guys who insist that it's just as good or better, which is ludicrous.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Pedantically speaking, no it isn't. But what else are we supposed to call it?
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Well Barry, I'd rather call it technically. There's no mirror, pentaprism, etc. Interchangeable lens digital camera?
Or yet just as simple as compact (short) that's what this acquisition device actually is, besides and granted the revolutionary 4/3 concept behind. Despite more shells to come such as the new APS-C sensor sized Samsung NX10. No mirror, nor optical pentaprism viewfinder either. Smaller than a DSLR (the mirror doesn't much sense in digital video realm, doesn't it?), anyway. The first one (ILDC) fits better IM(H)O.
Ian-T
Veteran
...ok....this made me spit up my coffee. LOL
(sigh)...the truth hurts
Not necessarily, but talented individuals who make a living lighting and shooting images will gravitate toward something that gives them better images and more creative possibilities...and with an easier workflow. And while, yes, the images I can get out of the GH1 are amazing, the image quality and creative control of the RAW codec found in Scarlet is something I think any image creator will desire.
Again, I love my GH1. And the miser in me is REALLY happy at how little I paid for it. But it's very difficult to pull focus with because there's no way to attach an HD external monitor while recording. This also makes jib shots basically impossible. There are no XLR inputs, and I've learned that having to shoot double-system sound is pain in the butt to sync in post (when you don't have an assistant editor to do the monotonous task for you). The 17mbps AVCHD codec really hampers what would otherwise be stellar imagery. Rolling shutter, etc, etc. I've had to deal with all these issues. And I'm NOT complaining. I've accepted them as a trade-off for getting otherwise amazing imagery.
But will I pay a little more for 11 stops of dynamic range, 3k resolution, RAW codec, XLR inputs and the ability to monitor my shots on a big HD monitor? Um, yes.
If I'm going to bother to shoot a feature...and the stress that entails, I don't want to be hampered by the GH1's shortcomings. Music videos? Fine. Short films? Sure. But a feature? The ease of use of the Scarlet would make up for the difference in cost in about two days.
But that's just my opinion.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Just a warning I was out celebrating with some wine. So excuse any typos. :happy:
Okay well my point about RED losing out in the future is they will need to get a 4:4:4 chip set to compete. It's just the nature of the game. It's been done so now it is just a matter of time before that price drops to their price point and they are in trouble. Honestly if I was in RED's shoes I would just drop the Scarlet and focus on getting that chip into the RED and just see where the new HDSLR market goes. They were too soon to announced with their product and it hurt them. They should look at Apple's strategy and keep that info on lock down. But they are a new company so I believe they will figure it out in the end.
I'm an optimistic and am the type to charge into a loosing battle in case you don't know. It's just my nature and I'm a stubborn SOB at that. So I predict the HDSLRs will grow into a new breed of cameras that will pretty much blow Scarlet out of the water until they do some drastic changes. The HDSLR may not be where it is at right now in this moment but it will form a new breed of HD cameras.
But once that is all said and done there is always going to be the next best thing. Ultra High Def, 3D HD cams, God Mode cams... you name it. But if you don't grab what you have available now and just shoot something already then you are just sitting on the sideline. So grabbing an HDSLR is just as good as somebody grabbing a RED as long as they are moving cinema forward.
Okay well my point about RED losing out in the future is they will need to get a 4:4:4 chip set to compete. It's just the nature of the game. It's been done so now it is just a matter of time before that price drops to their price point and they are in trouble. Honestly if I was in RED's shoes I would just drop the Scarlet and focus on getting that chip into the RED and just see where the new HDSLR market goes. They were too soon to announced with their product and it hurt them. They should look at Apple's strategy and keep that info on lock down. But they are a new company so I believe they will figure it out in the end.
I'm an optimistic and am the type to charge into a loosing battle in case you don't know. It's just my nature and I'm a stubborn SOB at that. So I predict the HDSLRs will grow into a new breed of cameras that will pretty much blow Scarlet out of the water until they do some drastic changes. The HDSLR may not be where it is at right now in this moment but it will form a new breed of HD cameras.
But once that is all said and done there is always going to be the next best thing. Ultra High Def, 3D HD cams, God Mode cams... you name it. But if you don't grab what you have available now and just shoot something already then you are just sitting on the sideline. So grabbing an HDSLR is just as good as somebody grabbing a RED as long as they are moving cinema forward.
GRENCH
Well-known member
I believe the DSLRs are right on time, but the day that the Scarlet finally breaths air that will be the same day that my 7D will become my B-cam. I believe many of us are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Because the DSLRs are so inexpensive it allows for new film makers to get started making money right out of school. By the time the Scarlet is available they might have earned enough money to purchase 1.
I don't know about you guys but I don't miss my adapters days 1 bit
I still own my upgraded Extreme, & HVX200, but haven't picked them up since my 7D arrived
I don't know about you guys but I don't miss my adapters days 1 bit
I still own my upgraded Extreme, & HVX200, but haven't picked them up since my 7D arrived
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Don't get me wrong because I agree that anything you can get your hands on to make your creative vision a reality is important. I just think you can make something just as powerful on a 16mm film camera that has none of the bells and whistles like the RED has. I also think RED's open strategy about their concept designs is just hurting them. That's all I'm really saying about RED besides the fact that if somebody can make a film on a DVX (24p) then they should be able to make it on a GH1. You don't have to have all those features to make a film. Look at some of the greatest films in history. They had a film camera, a lens, some lights, and maybe some audio recording device. You don't HAVE to have all the other features to make a great film. So I hope that in film school these days they are teaching students you can make a great film despite the features on your camera. At least that is what I was thinking when I left film school. But I don't know... maybe I'm just old cause I just turned 34 today.
rogar-Happy(DBG):I guess I am an old man cause I like doing things because they are hard and not because they are easy. Bah humbug. Hehe