Various Film Sound dB Levels

iamlance

iamlance

Well-known member
I've heard for the longest time that the industry standard for advertisements and films was having the sound levels at -12 dB. However, I recently saw this (http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1879718) article that touches on more complex information. What I think it is basically saying is depending on your end format [theater, phone, computer], you would want different levels, and on top of that, dialogue would be set to a different level than say sound effects.
Could someone confirm this, and add to it if possible?
 
Not strictly true the -12dbfs (or -10dbfs in the UK) max level is relevant for TV and broadcast delivery and really has nothing to do with loudness/dynamic range or any other delivery format such as dolby for cinema or CD music etc.

It all depends on the delivery system and a computer speaker may require a different balance to that of a TV with better speakers or a huge cinema system that can handle extreme dynamic range.

So you may have a small dynamic range for computers and TV and a huge dynamic range for cinema but the maximum levels are a different thing and may be related to transmission networks or cinema delivery formats such as dolby digital etc.

As a brief example listen to a FM radio station and a classical one will have one dynamic range, a pop one may have less and a rock one may have very limited dynamic range of possibly only 1db but they all will have a maximum transmission level of -12dbfs.

As a general rule I would use three different max levels for my mixing:

1: Cinema or music for CD/Mp4 I use the full range all the way up to 0dbfs
2: Computer or on-line you tube video I use -6 to -3dbfs
3: TV and broadcast I use -10dbfs (-12dbfs in the USA etc)

As for dynamic range that all depends on the end delivery system as a 10k watt JBL cinema rig will need a different dynamic range to a 3watt TV or computer speaker.

As a side note there have recently been a few TV dramas here in the Uk that have been mixed for cinema dynamics but when delivered for TV the viewer has struggled with hearing the dialogue as it has too much dynamic range.
 
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In cinema the dialogue db is lower, because you are in a quiet room with big speakers.
But for TV you must make dialogue louder because in home you have kids playing, fridge and other home appliances humming and also traffic outside etc..
 
Broadcast has lots of different standards, theatre really none.

As a rule in digital you should never be over -3dBs since anything over that will start to distort loud sounds. That said most internet clients wan stuff as close to 0 as possible so fidelity bows to producer demands.

Analog broadcast used to be pretty strict on the -12 dB (US anyway) because of how the NTSC signal is constructed. Loud audio could bleed over and show up in the picture of the next channel. That was a costly violation so to play it safe they set the max quite low.

This is not an issue with digital broadcasting but standards have not changed everywhere to reflect the new reality.

Also in the US there are rules about the average volume of a show compared to ads, so both would need to evolve at the same time, this I expect will slowly change to a new higher level.

A number of cable broadcasters are requiring a new spec based on a box from Dolby. This is a Dialog Normal level. The catch for small folks is this box costs a LOT. There is no sure fire way to emulate this number. It is level based but it's level based after the box attempts to isolate dialog, so it's not an easy thing to duplicate.

Film is mixed by ear in a calibrated room. If you are going to the big screen you calibrate the room and then just mix where you want it. This is why some films, "300 is a good example, are painfully loud and others like "in the Bedroom" are very quiet.

Broadcast as someone mentioned will have dialog hotter, but also the whole thing will tend to be more compressed dynamically. It needs to cut through and you have to factor in that ads tend to be louder sounding because they are often very compressed, so your audience is going to set the level to deal with the ads and if they have to crank up the program to understand it they are not going to be happy campers.

Easiest thing is to ask the folks you are delivering to what they want.
 
Yes, cinema can go up to 0. You won't have any troubles. TV should not go higher than -10 because it will be distorted on TV speakers. PC is about -6.
 
Wow I had forgotten... Apple has it's own ideas about sound and how things should be that has very little relation ship to anybody else in the world.

Notice that the book is correctly telling you not to hit 0 dB but the meters show a +6. That is because Apple doesn't use dBfs for meters. And unless things have changed they do some behind the scenes voodoo and will dynamically adjust out puts so you can't clip. Of course this also means you really don't know what the real levels are because the meters are not showing you and if it thinks you have done something wrong will "fix it behind your back".

The text talks about showing you how far over 0 you are, but of course if they were actually measuring the signal that would be impossible since there is nothing past 0 dBfs.

Also there are some very misleading statements right at the start. It implies that dialog is mixed low and that theatres turn up the dialog. This is inherently false. The theatres get a mix, dialog does not come as a separate element. On most films you could turn up the center speaker and you would be turning up the dialog, but also the Foley and any centered SFX. You would also get a kick in the pants from THX and or Dolby for having your theatre out of calibration. As a practical matter theatres do turn down the decoder master level on films they get complaints about being too loud, but that lowers everything.

Judging from the first bit I read I would take with a few pounds of salt anything printed there.
 
1: Cinema or music for CD/Mp4 I use the full range all the way up to 0dbfs, -- Same here at least music CDs
2: Computer or on-line you tube video I use -6 to -3dbfs -- Same here .. the same for home DVD/BU.
3: TV and broadcast I use -10dbfs (-12dbfs in the USA etc) -- Sort of the same here

In the USA (or at least the NYC networks) prior to the 'CALM Act / ATSC 'recommended practices' (-24LUFS integrated), A reference of -20bBFS with program audio peaks not exceeding -10bBFS was the norm.
 
The short films we create play at a local theater and then go straight onto YouTube. Would it be best to create 2 different edits, one for YouTube and the other for the cinema? Or is -6 good for both? Right now, we are doing -12 in Premiere. The theater could be changing the levels when they play it, though I couldn't say for sure.

If I heard correct, some of you said that the dialogue and fx levels are set by ear. Are there no levels that you aim for in the edit room? We do everything ourselves, and do not have the experience to feel for what's right well enough.
From what I remember, they just add everything and check the master level dB. Should we try to get dialogue and sound fx at -6 and music at a higher/lower level?

Again, this is for a small movie theater and YouTube. All narrative short films.
 
Yes, it would be best to create 2 different edits or "mixes". That's typically done from my experience. Web mixes are usually louder versus theatrical, and the dynamic range is decreased when creating a web mix from a theatrical mix.

Yes, dialogue and fx levels are set by ear. When I'm mixing, I never look at a meter and say that my footsteps/gunshots/ricochets MUST hit -8dBFS. I never do that. That would lead to a very boring mix. It's all by ear. Sometimes my explosion fx might peak louder than dialogue, actually, a lot of times it does.

What I do is set and measure my room (with pink noise) to somewhere between 79-81dBSPL (recently 80dBSPL is a comfortable room level for me). Then I mix by ear. I know my room so well that when I mix my dialogue (without looking at a meter), the levels end up around -24dB, which is the spec the broadcaster is looking for.

Many of us audio folks have a "brick wall limiter" that sits at the master bus and does nothing but prevent the overall signal from going over a certain dBFS value, whether it be -6 or -3 or even -0.1, depending on the spec you're trying to hit. The TV network I'm working with requires a maximum true peak of -6dBFS, so nothing can go above this or else I have more work to do!

For theatrical, the brick wall limiter is set extremely high, maybe even -1dBFS or higher! For web, I might do -2-3dBFS...
 
Totally agree there and my meters are there to give an indication that all is good for my technical delivery standards but god or the particle of the universe gave me two monitoring devices either side of the computer that allows me to balance the dynamics that are required for my mix.

P.S also agree that my brick wall is good too! :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
 
i don't understand what do you mean by a room level of 79-81dBSPL. (you mean -79 to -81dB ??? )
You mean you measure the room volume when its silent ?
 
deleuze3 said:
i don't understand what do you mean by a room level of 79-81dBSPL. (you mean -79 to -81dB ??? )
You mean you measure the room volume when its silent ?
Click to expand...

The room level means a fixed set-up for sound pressure level reference from your monitors when mixing to dolby or other surround specifications, as said by the O/P you feed pink noise through your monitoring system and set the overall level at the listening position to 79-81 dBSPL. (decibel sound pressure level)

The room will have a sound level of its own but that depends on the amount of air con etc but that is more commonly known as the noise floor and is normally around 40dbspl.

It is always a good to find a fixed reference level for any set-up and you should not adjust the volume control if possible as you can then concentrate on balancing the mix and dynamics.
 
deleuze3 said:
(you mean -79 to -81dB ??? )
You mean you measure the room volume when its silent ?
Click to expand...

GaryNattrass said:
The room level means a fixed set-up for sound pressure level reference from your monitors when mixing to dolby or other surround specifications, as said by the O/P you feed pink noise through your monitoring system and set the overall level at the listening position to 79-81 dBSPL. (decibel sound pressure level)
Click to expand...

deleuze3, SPL (Sound Pressure Level) is the measure of acoustic sound in a room. It may also be helpful to note that SPL doesn't typically* use any negative dB values. 0dB is the threshold of human hearing, so you can really only go up from there.

*There are a coupe of "dead" rooms that I have seen rated at -dBSPL, but that's very rare and is measured using incredibly sensitive equipment. You won't see this often at all. I only mention this to avoid the incorrect blanket statement that SPL is "never" rated in -dB values, but the chances that you'll ever need to measure below 0dB SPL are probably lower than finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
 
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