FS7: Variable ND or screw on ND for FS7?

traviswears

traviswears

Well-known member
OK! Have been shooting a lot of C300/C100 so far this year and mostly indoors w/my FS7 but recently I've had a few shoots outside.

What I'm finding is that shooting in bright daylight in Cine EI/Slog3 w/the SB Ultra and my go-to 24-70 II, I am having trouble opening up more than f5.6 or so. Yesterday I was having to shoot around f7 at times due to the limited ISO controls in that mode.

Whether it's "the right way" or not, one of the most useful elements of the C-series is the ability to use the ISO to subtly tweak exposure in extra bright or low-light scenarios. The FS7, especially in Cine EI mode is more limited in this way.

What is everyone else doing to counter this? Is a variable-ND the solution? I used these early in my DSLR days and I hate having to screw and unscrew them constantly. Also, I had a hard time finding a version w/a completely neutral color cast. I suppose another option would be to buy a few light ND filters to screw on.

I don't care for matte boxes, so that's not an option for me. I like a very, very minimal rig.

Any suggestions?
 
Crossed polarizers (variable NDs) are an imperfect solution for cameras without internal ND filters; not a great idea on an FS7. A set of NDs to bolster the internal ones is a good idea. Equally I would suggest bunging a single decent-quality polarizer on for bright outdoor stuff - a great get-out-of-jail for backlit skin and will knock you down maybe a 1 1/3 stops (Schneider Tru-pol) through to 2 stops (Tiffen Ultra Pol).

The CineEI principle is not well supported in current edit systems (ie no ISO slider), but if you are reasonably consistent, ie don't bounce back and forth between ISOs, you can rate the camera slower in exchange for less headroom, just as with the C300 but with the advantage that you haven't lost anything in the shadows. At native the headroom is six stops, so rated down one (or overexposing one if you prefer) leaves five stops, 1 1/3 leaves 4 2/3 etc. For a guide the C300 at native has about 5 1/3 stops headroom.

If post software reads the metadata (ie it is Sony), the CineEI is extremely flexible, but as most of my clients are just dumping into Adobe CC or Avid, for log I tend to stick to one or sometimes two ISOs (interior and exterior). I can also supply exposure adjustment LUTs to make sure they can see what I shot to,

Ben
 
Interesting points and perspectives. But no right or wrong, but simply what works for you...

There are at play factors regarding both lens, exposure and DoF you are looking to establish in both the shot and overall feel of your sequence/scene/project. You often (instinctively know) even when shooting HFR as in this scenario you appear to be working 'blind' often trusting the outcome. I shoot SLOG3 CINE EI as I know this combination works for me and there is often plenty of lattitude for error - the FS7 does appear to be very forgiving.

What I attempt (and I am a user of the 28-135mm kit lens and some other hired lenses) is to maintain a consistancy in "style". That happens to be my signature. No doubt others have there's. And generally, I am not under the pressured time constraints of (seemingly) most people here.

I do use grad filters on the Vocos MB255 matte box even with the use of the FS7's NDs - but I often have time to craft the scene. The use of grads to control exposure in picture sectors.

Currently, I find the ND range the FS7 offers in combination with CINE EI SLog3 extremely good. Any use of ND grads is controlling exposure with selected sectors of the frame additional to the internal ND structure controlling overall DoF.

This is how it works for me, for my style, and for the projects I shoot given the set of pressures I am happy to manage.
 
A single 0.6 ND in front of the lens will let you have instant access to ND 0.6, 1.2, 1.8, 2.4 - and those four options should let you get through a full day shooting outdoors even in the brightest sun.

The FS7's internal NDs make life super easy on that front.
 
I've had the FS7 since December, I haven't run into many situations where the internal ND's weren't enough, unless I was trying to shoot 1.4-2.0 ish on a sunny day, heh.
Although those situations are weddings, and I shoot in CineEI burning in a custom LUT, so rating at 500EI comes out the way I shoot it.

I guess you're trying to avoid rating the camera that low and avoid pushing it that much in post ?


I would suggest screw ons rather than variable - the variable ones I've used have definitely introduced some colour shifts. I have a Hoya ProND 8 filter (3 stops). Its not a lot, but with the internal NDs, I can pretty much shoot all my lenses wide open outside in the sun (although, as I mentioned, I'm burning in LUTs in those situations)
 
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Vari NDs are a huge compromise, affecting sharpness and skintones and all sorts.

If you don't want to get into a mattebox scenario then get the stackable screw-in Firecrest NDs at 82mm and get the step up rings for your lenses. I have a 3 stop and a 5 stop and they play very nice the FS7 internal ND, plus they are stackable and have zero colour cast.
 
Grug said:
A single 0.6 ND in front of the lens will let you have instant access to ND 0.6, 1.2, 1.8, 2.4 - and those four options should let you get through a full day shooting outdoors even in the brightest sun.

The FS7's internal NDs make life super easy on that front.
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He said he struggles to get beyond f/5.6 so a 0.6 will only get him to f/2.8. Fine for most situations, but if wants to get to f/1.4 he'd need a 1.2ND and all of the internal ND.
 
The Genustech Eclipse is a very good variable ND for the money and unlike others I've used, I haven't seen a shift in colour or a loss of sharpness.
 
Some notes about the Xume Adapters.

Xume Adapters push the filter further away from a lens' front element so can induce vignetting with some wide-angles. The two parts are about as thick as a very thin screw-in filter. I haven't had vignetting with EF lenses as wide as 17mm (eg 24/1.4, 24-70/2.8 , & 24-105mm, combined with a SpeedBooster, or the 17-55/2.8), but mostly shoot HD (or UHD) & haven't throughly tested DCI.

Since the connection is only magnetic Xume recommends using them when they are protected from impacts by a lens hood that attaches directly to the lens. This is simple enough with my Canon lenses that have 77mm threads, but with my 72mm threaded lenses (eg 45/2.8, 50/1.2, 85/1.2) I use step-up rings & Mamiya's RZ/RB rubber lens hoods (#1 & #2). These hoods have threads on their front where I mount the Xume lens adapter. I also use the hoods on the Veydras & the #1 works fine with the 25mm. I have a 80mm clamp-on hood for wider lenses, but had to grind it a bit to make it work with the Xumes.
 
If it's super bright, just pop on a ND filter and work with the internals. Always works fine for me. On the FS7, I've never needed a Variable ND as I just use the internal ND and tweak the ISO on the 3 pre-sets if needed. Sometimes I adjust the F-Stop as well. Works quite well.

Interesting thing about Variable ND. One day I was bored and I went to 4 camera stores around Los Angeles and tested about 8 different variable NDs (Lightcraft, Tiffen, Hoya, Kenko, Heliopan, etc). ALL OF THEM had a green color cast. The only ones that were sharp on longer lenses were the Heliopan and Kenko (the most expensive), all the other variable NDs introduced softness. Frank Glencairn highly recommends the Genus Eclipse as it does not have a green cast and keeps sharpness.

I did a test of the Heliopan vs the FS7 internal NDs. Aside from a slight green cast, the Heliopan image basically looked identical with no aberrations to the FS7 Internal NDs, unless you really stopped down the Heliopan (which you should not do anyways).

Xume adapters are excellent. I got it for my Red as there are no built in NDs. Really smart system. Simple, but brilliant idea.

However, for lighting fast run-and-gun a Variable ND (for the RED, not FS7) is still necessary IMO if your camera does not have internal NDs, just because it allows for super fast exposure changes that even the Xume can't do.

EDIT: I also noticed Non-Variable / traditional screw-on ND filters vary greatly in quality. The cheaper Tiffens have a green cast that's as bad as the variable NDs. I use the pricier Hoyas and they are very neutral. I've heard good things about Tiffen White Waters (considerably more expensive than basic Tiffens) as well. I guess you get what you pay for.
 
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As everyone's already stated, Travis, lots of unwanted artifacts and degradations with the vari ND's.

I use a Firecrest ND + Schneider Pola sandwich. The Firecrests really don't alter the WB so no need to adjust color.
When using external ND's that's a real gotcha that some people overlook.
 
bill totolo said:
As everyone's already stated, Travis, lots of unwanted artifacts and degradations with the vari ND's.

I use a Firecrest ND + Schneider Pola sandwich. The Firecrests really don't alter the WB so no need to adjust color.
When using external ND's that's a real gotcha that some people overlook.
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Good to know. It's been awhile since I've used one and I didn't know if there had been vast improvements. Sounds like it's still a PIA to use them.
 
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