Using the HVX for Documentary - Opinions?

R

robotjustin

Member
Hi Folks.

Quick question: I'm gearing up to start two new feature doc projects, and I was wondering if anyone has used the HVX on any long-form, professional docs, or know of any feature docs in production that are HVX-based.

I just finished my first doc (which screened at MoMA a few weeks ago) on the DVX, which I shot, produced, cut, and co-directed. I plan on not DPing the next doc, but will certainly do some pick-up stuff, as the film requires quite a bit of travel.

Any words of advice appreciated. I loved the look of the last film, and the DVX performed amazingly. Hoping that the HVX is the logical next decision, but worried about doc workflow / amount of footage needed versus typical narrative feature, etc.

Thanks!
 
i'm on my 2nd dvx doc, i will be getting the next gen HVX when it comes out, panny has a certain look and it works for me. HVX is a great choice for docs!
 
I'd highly reccomend either:

1. An assistant with a powerbook g4 and 3 or more p2 cards.

or

2. A HD based recorder like the firestore (out now) or cineporter (out sometime soon?)
 
If you have the patience, I think the HVX works great for doc work. I think an assistant would be extremely helpful, but you can do it alone. I worked with 4 8g P2's, and that was sufficient for most interviews. When I got to number 3, I would start to offload them to the PB with p2 genie. Once I got the workflow, it was flawless. At night, I offloaded the files to a portable 2 drive external raid 1, and to DVD backups. I took the drive back home thru security, and all the data was fine.
 
It depends what kind of doc you are talking about, if it is a lot of handheld, bad light, long talk or remote area without electricity, it's not a good idea to use HVX. The HVX shines in controlled situations: actors, focus marks, lots of light, computers, assistant.

I can imagine some sort of documentary where shooting as above is possible. But also lots of situations where you are happy that they invented video with low light recording and long recording possibilities. Like the DVX100 is the best in town.

Viewing, digitizing, scripting, editing, archiving, it can be done safe at home if you shoot on tape. Even a slomo can be done in editing. During the shoot you concentrate on the story following the main person, be ready to shoot the unexpected.

Most important (next to sound) is focussing. The image starts with what you see thru the viewfinder and there is the bad..., the HVX is just no good in focussing on the spot with unscripted moving objects, the LCD is just awful bad. An external monitor freezes your movements. Even shooting SD DVCPRO50 is difficult with this LCD and viewfinder.

So, to use the HVX and create the beautiful image you can create with it, you -as shooter- are partly involved in the editing/digitizing process during the shooting stage, you need a lighting setup without margins, it costs you energy, batteries and time. You need a @ doccutter way to shoot (no sleep), an assistant or firestore (again: more batteries).

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks all.

The two docs I'm starting are both very different. One will be verite, the other controlled, lit, dollied, tracked, storyboarded, ETC. The verite one will be just me and soundman. The other one will have a decent crew.

I got pretty good with the DVX+Anamorphic focus stickiness, so I hope I can conquer any HVX probs.

But it sounds like the HVX is correct for the "locked down" film, and incorrect for the verite film. Which stinks, since I will be financing the verite film myself, and wanted the camera to keep down rental costs.

Oh well! I will have to rent it and play for a weekend.

Thanks again!
 
I've been using solo HVX w/ P2Genie workflow for some documentary work all summer, it's not bad, but it's certainly a switch from the world of tapes. I am constantly worried about running out of space before a critical moment. I ended up having one card dumping while the other was shooting, and then just heading back to the laptop to swap cards every 10 mins (at 24Pn) or every 4mins at 60P.

I really want to get up and running with a firestore type product soon to get back to just shooting, and offloading later.

To summarize- the image quality is great, the ergonomics suck. Not having to capture is great, record times on P2 suck. Color rendition is great, low-light capabilities suck.

-Tom
 
I am doing the 3rd documentary now with P2 and the HVX and its not easy..but its possible and you got also efforts(like deleting what you dont need)...id say that you should decide how your doc will be produced: we did a lot of handcamera, and its impossible to use a firestore or cineporter(which is not out yet), for the extra weight and the FW connection, which wouldnt give me a good feeling.

Dont do it with someone who takes care of the cards and downloads them to a laptop/external drive, id suggest to use 3 8gig cards at minimum, as this gives you more shooting time in one and makes life easier if you dont have to swap cards all time...!

We are shooting about 4 or 5 hours a day since 1 week already, i am the technical assistent who copies all the data, use P2 genie as a big big help and do it very careful to 2 different HDDs at least an you will be happy...good luck!

p.s. search for "marc singer" here on the forum to see how you can make a doc with the hvx..crazy!
 
Yes the P2 workflow can be done with documentary. Is the HVX the best tool to tell your particlar story?...only you can answer that. It all depends on your shooting style and the type of shooting situations you will be in, and how much you are willing to worry about camera. Some docs and some doc filmmakers work better with a tape-based workflow. It is just a matter of your preference.
 
stuff

stuff

J P said:
Yes the P2 workflow can be done with documentary. Is the HVX the best tool to tell your particlar story?...only you can answer that. It all depends on your shooting style and the type of shooting situations you will be in, and how much you are willing to worry about camera. Some docs and some doc filmmakers work better with a tape-based workflow. It is just a matter of your preference.
Click to expand...

Well, I think I layed out the two styles possible: verite and lock down. Everything else is just a variation or combo.

I'm simply looking for opinions of people who have actually used the tool on feature docs.

Having to flip a P2 card every 8 minutes, I imagine, is the preference of no-one. But I'm interested in hearing opinions from people who have used the camera in a long-form, hi-quality doc situation. As I stated, I've been more than happy with the DVX (and it held up unbelievably well projected in a movie theatre) but I'd like the make the leap, as everyone else does, to HD.
 
hvx_germanboy said:
p.s. search for "marc singer" here on the forum to see how you can make a doc with the hvx..crazy!
Click to expand...


Thanks! Fascinating stuff. I will definitely need to include a few more P2 cards in the budget!

Amazing stuff though!
 
I'm doing a very long, very large documentary, lots of shots out in the wilderness, lots of interviews inside, outside, walking, very rough on the hardware, changing situations constantly. I'm having a great time with the HVX200 and the FS-100. P2 cards just don't have enough capacity for what I do, and most of the time we don't have time, nor space for a laptop.

For example, some of my interviews are in very old, traditional culutural settings, and we're not allow to move around during the interview, or event we're getting shots of. Thus, having an assistant swap out P2 cards is out of the question. So the FS-100 saves the day. It's proven itself rugged and reliable for us. I don't think I'll ever shoot with anything else on this camera.

And with the version 3.0 of the FS-100 coming out, it's a fantastic product. Plus you can do things like time lapse settings and SNAP and such that the HVX200 won't do with P2 cards. There's a pair of P2s in the camera at all times, but, it's very rare I actually use them.

Also, we use a CineSaddle and MiniSaddle, depending on the situation. They are worth every penny. Material and workmanship are not to be matched. The mounting hardware that comes with it is also top rate. Did I mention that since I got the CineSaddle, I rarely use my tripod in the field?
 
Last edited:
I'm also doing a verite based doc with hours of footage shot per day with the hvx and fs100. after hearing all the fs100 firewire connection complaints i was quite worried and recorded to p2 redundant, but i have yet to have a problem with lost connection so i ditched p2. i would recommend getting an elbow firewire connection for the port on camera as it keeps the cable from protruding too far out making it much harder to get pulled out accidentally. i also attach the firewire cable to the cable clip under the mic holder which keeps any tension that could be created from reaching the dv port on the camera. i keep my firestore mounted below with the large jimmy-box which also serves to keep fs noise out of my onboard mic. also use the cinesaddle for static shots and the fx100 tucks in nicely to the marsupial pouch.

i have a pair of fs100 which provide about 110 minutes record time each (will be 220 with version 3 in native mode) and as one fills up i switch it out and start dumping the other's footage to hard drive. when i get home from the shoot i back everything up to mirrored raid.

the drawback for me is really just the weight increase from the dvx and you do notice it at the end of the day. but when you log through the footage it more than makes up for it. as for all this talk of the difficulties of focus and low light - i would always argue that the quality of footage you are getting from the hvx is so much higher that it makes it worth it - for me at least. i have no problem using 12db of gain if i need it...and if i'm a bit soft i could care less if i captured the vibe of the scene...while many others couldn't stand for it. that's your call.

good luck---
 
Good statements..!

I am also a little limited by the p2, actually we are having the problem right now that we are going to have interviews in a prison, which is very difficult: probably no laptop allowed, 4 hours of shooting a day and maximum 6 8gig cards..so this wount work obviously...i would go for 2 firestores, if they had the version 3 update already...any news when this will come..?

Will this be just a software update or does it need anything else?
I am also wondering which files the FS100 is writing, no .mxf though right?

..sorry if i highjacked this thread a little, but think this is basic for long documentaries..!
 
I suggest two P2Stores and three 4GB cards for documentary work. It is as close to a 16mm workflow as you can get - 10 minute loads in 720/24PN and about 300 minutes of total footage without a larger download.

When I'm close to my laptop and an external drive, the cards go straight in with P2Genie, which really makes MXF management a breeze. It is like watching cold water come to a boil dumping a full Store via USB2, but with P2Genie you can do it during lunch and at the end of the day without supervising the transfer.

I haven't had any issues - lost or corrupt data - with this workflow. My reservation about the 1394 disk recorders is the total recording time available versus cost. Perhaps if they had been to market when the camera was released, as a Panasonic product, I might've jumped in.

e
 
I can tell you from having used the FS-100 a LOT under some very adverse conditions, it's top quality, very durable, and as reliable as anything I've ever used. Again, in my situation, the P2 Store is not an option, as I can not be swapping out P2 cards. Sometimes I have to set the camera, let it run for 45 minutes while I'm across the room or across a field, and no one can be physically near it. P2 Store can't handle that. The FS-100 can.

hvx_germanboy: The FS-100 does write MXF data. When you're done shooting, and ready to load it into your NLE or whatever, there's an Organize P2 function you run. It takes all of 10 seconds, and poof, it's the same file structure and metadata you have with a P2 card.

I actually use the belt clip when I'm forced to go handheld. I know folks complain about the belt clip that comes with it, but I actually have used it a lot and it's stable, works well. But when I'm in those situations, I find I can use the CineSaddle (my favorite piece of equipment) or MiniSaddle and get even better shots. The FS-100 just slips into a pocket.

Until you've used this stuff to a reasonable extent, the arguments against them are all theoretical. I'm using this stuff to make a living, it works great.

I can argue, as many still do, the cost versus capacity of P2 cards. As for 16mm workflow, if we only had 16mm, we'd never be able to get what we're getting.

In fact, the FS-100 was on the market and listed by Panasonic on it's HVX-200 web page when the camera was introduced. Panasonic actually endorses the FS-100 and it is still listed with the other accessories on Panasonic's HVX-200 page. It was just about the first 3rd party accessory to come out.

Bear in mind that Focus Enhancements has been building DTEs and other equipment for a very long time, and they have tons and tons of their DTEs that have been working for a very, very long time. The company and their products have a top notch history and reputation.
 
For documentary work, field production is important.
Working in the field is not always working in the beautifull Calnifornia sun, this is Europe. Looking at the Focus site for technical info and reading the Focus pdf, important info is left out: What are the temperatures you can work with using the Focus FS100?

What about freezing cold, blizzards, dessert heat, and days with rain? Where can I find the info on that? Working temperatures for the batterie and the disk.
 
BenB is absolutely correct. The Firestore with the 2.0 firmware upgrade is very stable and reliable in the field. I have shot over 3TB of footage in the last 3 weeks using my 2 firestores and have not had a single file corrupted, lost, or in any way damaged. The 3.0 firmware upgrade will be a very welcome addition but 2.0 works just fine.

I would imagine we will see 3.0 rolling out very soon. The upgrade is a software upgrade I believe and can be purchased from Focus. Check their website.

XRay - Have you contacted Focus to ask for these specs? That would be my first move if I needed to find out.
 
No, my first move is reading the technical sheet that belongs to the product and view the FAQ list on the website. Also looked at the support pages there. Normal behavior I think. No info found.

BTW: This is not a pro/contra firestore debate, its about documentary shooting. The need off light, batteries, the focussing (what do you SEE if you look in the viewfinder, and can you trust it, and is it useful?) Those questions and the temperature thing as above- are number 1 questions.

How is it handheld, to carry around the need of laptop or 2! P2 stores...
If I am shooting a doc in Patagonia, sleeping in a tent, is it the tool to take with me?
 
BenB said:
Did I mention that since I got the CineSaddle, I rarely use my tripod in the field?
Click to expand...

Hey Ben, what are you using for elevating the camera out in the field?
I pretty much always shoot on sticks out in the middle of nowhere but if I can have a system where I don't have to lug my tripod all over the planet, that would be great. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top