Using Roland R-05 as main audio for 550d

L

leeburnett

Active member
Hello good DVX people,

I have a Canon 550d (T2i) and want to use my Roland R-05 stereo mic as the main audio source for video files to save me syncing in post. I don't think the R-05 is very popular amongst DSLR users, but the audio it creates is pretty good to my ears.

Does anybody know if the sescom attenuator cable for the zoom h4n would work with the R-05? Or is there another option that will work?

I want to get my camera set up ready to make ome documentaries. I have a bit of money to put towards some stuff - I've bought a new lens, tripod, and soon to get some ND filters and a rig, it's just the audio I'm a bit confused by. I currently have the Roland R-05 and the Rode videomic, and didn't want to spend much more on audio equipment. I didn't think a lavalier mic was completely necessary considering I have these, although I will be conducting some interviews so not sure.

Help is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
 
Welcome to DVXUser, leeburnett. I'd first recommend that you spend some time reading through the yellow stickies at the top of the sound forum. You need to get some of the basics of audio for video, and that will help you answer your question.

The first two things you need to know:

1) On the camera is the worst and last place for a mic if you care at all about the quality of your sound. The rule is, "the closer the mic is to the source, the better."

2) Dialog is not a stereo source, and recording it with a stereo mic is only going to create problems, not fix them.

leeburnett said:
... and didn't want to spend much more on audio equipment.
Click to expand...

This is the great fallacy of beginners in video. You've invested in a camera and lots of support for it. Why on earth are you not prepared to do the same for your audio? Sound isn't some magical thing that you point a mic in the right direction and it suddenly works. You have to use the right gear, and use the gear properly.

Again, read through the stickies, and maybe even pick up a copy of the Sound for Film and Television DVD (also available as a download).
 
Hey Alex, thanks for the reply.

The stickies are excellent, apologies for not going there first. Just to clear that comment up, I'm an absolute perfectionist, so that should have read "I didn't want to spend much more on audio equipment if there was a way to get some great quality audio from what I've already got". Obviously that's not the case, so I'm willing to invest a bit more.

I've been reading and reading and reading for the past 2 weeks, and not once have I read that recording dialog in stereo will cause issues, which I guess is the problem with the internet, it has no chronology.

Just one quick question to hassle you a bit more, if I was to get a decent lavalier mic, In which situations would you use each mic - lav, rode videomic and roland stereo recorder? I'm still feeling lost about the use for each one.

I have a documentary that I'm going to start filming for in about 2 months, but also have some shoots planned to film some bands. They'll be outside, all one shot recordings with very little post-editing (like La Blogotheque if you've seen that)

Thanks for the advice, I'll get there sooner or later.
 
And I forgot to mention that I'm looking at doing this completely one-manned. Obviously this will be amateur production, but until I'm making a living from this it will all be a one-man-band, which is why I'm finding it an information mine-field.
 
leeburnett said:
Hello good DVX people,

I have a Canon 550d (T2i) and want to use my Roland R-05 stereo mic as the main audio source for video files to save me syncing in post. I don't think the R-05 is very popular amongst DSLR users, but the audio it creates is pretty good to my ears.

Does anybody know if the sescom attenuator cable for the zoom h4n would work with the R-05? Or is there another option that will work?

I want to get my camera set up ready to make some documentaries. I have a bit of money to put towards some stuff - I've bought a new lens, tripod, and soon to get some ND filters and a rig, it's just the audio I'm a bit confused by. I currently have the Roland R-05 and the Rode videomic, and didn't want to spend much more on audio equipment. I didn't think a lavalier mic was completely necessary considering I have these, although I will be conducting some interviews so not sure.

Help is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
Click to expand...
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but "not spend much more on audio" is may not be realistic. You don't have to spend a lot, but you should understand that it's not at all uncommon for the audio portion of a serious worker's kit to actually cost more than the video. You need good lenses to produce quality images and your audio deserves similar attention.
Just one quick question to hassle you a bit more, if I was to get a decent lavalier mic, In which situations would you use each mic - lav, rode videomic and roland stereo recorder? I'm still feeling lost about the use for each one.
Click to expand...
You'd use a lav for interviews and dialog where you are unable to boom the shot. The Videomic would go on a boom for interviews where possible and dialog where the camera is close enough that the mic can keep out of shot and still be close enough to the subject for proper pickup (about 20 inches). The recorders internal stereo mics could be used for ambiance, SFX recording, and smaller musical groups.

You'll probably find that the internal recording in your camera is marginal at best, most of the time only usable as a guide track. Quality sound with DSLRs usually requires you go double system and record to an external recorder. Your R-05 MIGHT suffice for that.

I have a documentary that I'm going to start filming for in about 2 months, but also have some shoots planned to film some bands. They'll be outside, all one shot recordings with very little post-editing (like La Blogotheque if you've seen that)
Click to expand...
Again, not realistic. Videos are made in post - the original footage and sound recordings are just the raw materials. Static cameras are boring, moving cameras bobbing and weaving around the scene look amateurish. Films of almost any type are made of numerous individual shots cut together.
 
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Thanks again, I think I'm getting there. I think the other kit I may need is a lavalier mic and a preamp of some sort - JuicedLink are raved about all over the internet, and I usually feel like that's just sheep behaviour because some famous videographer somewhere mentioned it and now everybody's got one... But, I think with a lav and preamp and my existing kit I should be able to get some decent audio. Plus I can route the preamp straight into my camera, using Magic Lantern to keep the gain in check and monitor the audio on screen. Sound ok?

As for the last comment, it's quite a unique take on video. Blogotheque don't aim for high-end perfect recordings, but one-shot videos of bands playing in interesting settings. check it out - http://www.blogotheque.net/

It may appear a bit amateur, but I love the intimate feel of the videos - they're raw and real and the mistakes are still there. I've been in touch with some of the people involved and they're all recorded in one shot, audio and video, then touched up in post, but nothing too much.
 
leeburnett said:
Thanks again, I think I'm getting there. I think the other kit I may need is a lavalier mic and a preamp of some sort - JuicedLink are raved about all over the internet, and I usually feel like that's just sheep behaviour because some famous videographer somewhere mentioned it and now everybody's got one... But, I think with a lav and preamp and my existing kit I should be able to get some decent audio. Plus I can route the preamp straight into my camera, using Magic Lantern to keep the gain in check and monitor the audio on screen. Sound ok?
Click to expand...
I own a Juicedlink 231 and can attest to its quality and usefulness. Many people have tried to get good sound recording direct to camera and ultimately given up and gone with the external recorder. Your mileage may vary. "Monitor audio on the screen" isn't sufficient - headphones are mandatory and I don't believe there's anyway to do that with your DSLR.
 
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Steve House said:
"Monitor audio on the screen" isn't sufficient - headphones are mandatory and I don't believe there's anyway to do that with your DSLR.
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Exactly. There's an old chef's saying that, "If you aren't tasting, you aren't cooking." You wouldn't shoot video without watching the monitor/viewfinder, so why record audio without listening to it?

As for headphones and the T2i, Magic Lantern makes that possible, but it requires a USB>headphone adapter.

That said, in-camera audio with DSLR cameras is sub-par. It's easier to get good sound with an external recorder.
 
OK, so if I had the Lavalier Mic or Rode video mic (which I bought on a whim with the camera, so may upgrade because I'm not satisfied with it) wired through a JuicedLink pre-amp, this then wired to the Roland R-05 to record, and monitor headphones to monitor, then I should have something for most situations... then if I come to make some cash from my creations I'll upgrade in the future.

What exactly would be the downfalls of wiring straight into the r-05 without the external preamp? would I notice a huge downfall in audio quality? I'm not pro, but I do have some money to put towards it and if it's going to be a massive difference then I'll invest in the JuicedLink.

I have about £1000 ($1600) for kit at the moment, I need some ND (on an 82mm lens it's not cheap) and a new HDD to store and edit from... I don't yet have a shoulder rig, but I'm going to build one for now, that can wait. I should have enough money, the problem is that I can't find a UK stockist of Juicedlink preamps, and shipping from B&H is a bomb to England.

As for which Juicedlink to purchase... my r-05 doesn't have XLR outputs, so I could get the DS214 which is significantly cheaper, but then if I do upgrade I guess I'll have to upgrade that too.

What if i'm recording through the r-05, how would I preamp this and record back into the r-05? I'm a bit lost on the structure of it.

Thanks so much for the help guys, I can't believe I didn't post here sooner.
 
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I've had an email from Sescom saying that their LN2mic cable with -25db attenuator will work with the R-05, but I'm skeptical of whether I can actually record quality audio without a decent preamp anywhere in my setup? If it's possible then I'll do it, to save money and weight, but I can't imagine such a simple solution will be any good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Oq5KdwrCA

Can this cable really mean I can do without the JuicedLink as they state in the above video?

Is there no way of auto-recording straight onto my DSLR video file. From what I've learnt in the past couple of days it seems that I'm just going to have to always sync in post.
 
leeburnett said:
I've had an email from Sescom saying that their LN2mic cable with -25db attenuator will work with the R-05, but I'm skeptical of whether I can actually record quality audio without a decent preamp anywhere in my setup? If it's possible then I'll do it, to save money and weight, but I can't imagine such a simple solution will be any good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Oq5KdwrCA

Can this cable really mean I can do without the JuicedLink as they state in the above video?

Is there no way of auto-recording straight onto my DSLR video file. From what I've learnt in the past couple of days it seems that I'm just going to have to always sync in post.
Click to expand...
Using the setup they illustrated in the video, the recorder is serving as the preamp. The problem with going straight into the the video file in the DSLR is that the audio circuits in virtually all DSLRs coming on the market so far are really an afterthought and are pretty minimal - they work, but just barely and are usually pretty noisy. You caan do it and the video where they recorded into the camera doesn't sound too bad but you'll find that an external recorder will usually have better results. The Juicedlink really won't do anything with your present mics - it takes an XLR mic and converts it to 3.5mm, serving as a preamp in the process. Your Videomic is already 3.5mm. It depends on what lav you get znd how it will be wired but for the moment a Juiced or Beach would be redundent. When you use the Videomic it would plug directly into the external mic input on the Roland.
 
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OK thanks a lot, that does make sense. It's always a shock to realize that what you previously thought of as a good upgrade are pretty much at the very low end of quality. I'm only just entering the world of video with the hope of making it a career, so before now I didn't want to invest much money.

I think for now I'm going to get a half decent lavalier mic for indoor interviews, and use that or my videomic routed into my r-05, which I think can produce half-decent audio. I may upgrade to a better shotgun mic, preamp and recorder though, which would get rid of the majority of my funds... The problem is I only have one very good lens, and the 550d, so I was tempted to upgrade to a 5dmkii and get a decent prime lens of some sort. Ohhhh the choices are never ending.
 
leeburnett said:
It's always a shock to realize that what you previously thought of as a good upgrade are pretty much at the very low end of quality. I'm only just entering the world of video with the hope of making it a career, so before now I didn't want to invest much money.
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel any better, audio is never the first or most invested-in thought in camera design. You can spend $400 or $40k and either way have a camera where audio was thrown in merely because they cannot sell a camera without sound recording capabilities. Granted, audio in the higher-end cameras can be quite acceptable, even pretty good, but it's still an afterthought in the grand scheme. And on the big-budget film sets, audio is always recorded separately with a sound rig that can cost 3x what the camera cost.

Of course, recording audio to film during production has even more limitations than DSLR, and the high-end film cameras don't record sound anyway, so second-system sound is an absolute must with film.

The T2i can shoot some very nice footage, so don't think for a second that you made a poor purchase just because the sound section on the camera isn't great. Sound isn't what the camera was built to do.

leeburnett said:
The problem is I only have one very good lens, and the 550d, so I was tempted to upgrade to a 5dmkii and get a decent prime lens of some sort. Ohhhh the choices are never ending.
Click to expand...

This is a conversation not really for the sound forum, but you can save lots of money and get really nice glass by purchasing vintage primes. There's a great thread in the Canon APS-C forum about vintage lenses. Get in on the discussion there and you might find a really inexpensive way to get into better glass for the camera. Use the money you save to beef up your sound kit. I've shot several projects on a T2i/550D with vintage primes and have always loved the results.
 
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