Using HVX for minature shoot

B

bencowell

New member
Hello,

I'm planning a project that will require shooting miniature backgrounds with a CGI character composited in to the shots. I've been doing a lot of research and have decided it'd be a real shame to use DV footage, and I'm going to need to shoot at a high frame rate, therefore my best option seems to be the Panasonic HVX.

I'm prepared to buy one however I have quite a few questions that it's hard to get answered before I shell out so much cash (there's not much useful advice to be had on Tottenham Court Rd in London about shooting minatures !).

I'd love to speak to anyone that's tried shooting miniatures with this camera. Even better, if anyone has any footage I could look at before I take the plunge.

I've read lots of people talk about the need to get as smaller iris as possible to get a decent DOF, and therefore the need for a lot of light. I'm wondering quite how much light is needed ? .. I'm planning to shoot a few sequences out of doors to get a real sky so I'd imagine these would be ok. Am I unlikely to be able to shoot at 60fps at f22 in a studio without burning the place down ?.

Also how close to the lens will I be able to focus ?, I've done some DSLR stop motion in the past and had to use diopeters to focus close up.

Any input on using the HVX for miniatures or models would be most appreciated.

Thanks guys.
ben

As a background : I'm a 3D animator by trade and have a lot of experience with compositing, visual effects and such.
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http://www.rethinkfx.com
 
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I'm sure someone here will have better answers, as I have not used my HVX 200 for shooting miniatures yet. I have shot miniatures with Mitchell 35mm and 65mm cameras as well as an Arri 16 highspeed, tho -

First, I did read one review that said that the way the HVX moves the imager block as part of its lens correction also allows it to focus very close to the front surface of the lens. Hopefully someone can confirm that.

Second, the smaller sensor of the HVX means it will probably have quite a bit more DOF than yout DSLR for a given angle of view. That's why so much effort has been put into 35mm adapters to allow for selective focus - too much DOF looks like un-cinematic clutter. Also the HD format allows for pulling mattes with cleaner edges than with HDV or DV.

As far as getting enough exposure on a stage, that really depends on how large an area you're trying to light. That pesky inverse-square thing has caught a lot of inexperienced gaffer/DPs short of available amperage. There will always be limitations that you have to work with, but right now the HVX seems like a very good choice for the kind of thing you want to do.
 
If you're comfortable with stop motion work, can't you just stick with the dSLR model? Are you talking about all tracking camera shots? Of course, if you're outside, stop motion probably isn't an option.

Do you have a light meter? Then you could get an idea of what you'd need to get exposure. The HVX is a big camera, size is likely to be an issue. Getting low enough might require set considerations, mirrors, or other optical tricks. The advantage (or disadvantage) to the HVX is its smaller sensor. You will find a much deeper focus than with dSLRs with a large sensor. At full wide you can get very very close, but it wouldn't hurt to have a diopter as an option, too.
 
Fantastic thanks guys.

@Glen : thanks for your thoughts, very helpful. It had struck me I'm trying to do the opposite of everyone else shooting on HD and have a wide DOF so the nature of video technology might help.

@Prof U : I had thought about the dSLR option however I'm shooting water (I know, I know!) and skies. I don't have a light meter, however I don't have the HVX yet either.

Thanks both of you for your advice, it's much appreciated, I guess I have a lot more planning and research to do before I bite the bullet and purchase a HVX.

One final question, is there a healthy 2nd hand market for the HVX ?, I'd probably want to sell it once the project is complete .. but I can't see that many at all on Ebay.

cheers
ben
 
You probably won't see good deals on any used HVXs on Ebay until they are fairly obsolete. People who have them generally hang on to them, which is a good sign.

Only a couple of years ago I was trolling Ebay for a spare Sony TRV900 because I have an underwater housing that was a larger investment than the camera, but because it was a very popular DV camera it was impossible to find a bargain even though they were freakin' 10 years old! Gave up after wasting lots of time (also a friend just got burned buying an NAD audio amp that needed repair).

It is actually pretty easy to find a place to rent an HVX, which may make economic sense if you only have a single shoot planned. I had actually booked one for rent but got cold feet and bought mine because I felt I needed a couple of weeks to get to know the camera before our shoot. Boy, am I glad I did.

If I had had more time to plan I would have bought all of Barry's training DVDs first and looked at them a couple of times before even buying the camera. They're great.

Another good option is to find someone who owns an HVX in your area who would like to help you in order learn how to shoot miniatures. There may be a nice person out there who wants to see how comping gets done.

Also, have you ever heard of a split diopter? It's a close-up diopter that's been sawn in half so only half of the frame is focused in close. I used one to shoot a "married guy trying to get his mistress off the phone" in extreme CU while his wife watches from out in the kitchen. Sort of an in-camera comp. You just have to hide the transition edge along a vertical, like a doorway or something...
If you get a "series 9" adapter there are loads of diopters around for that size because it was hugely popular for 16mm.

Then there's the Frazier, but that's Panavi$ion stuff. Good to know about if you're in the biz, tho -
 
Hey Glen,

Yeah I suspected that was the situation with the HVX. Even though it's only for this project I know I won't regret buying one, 3 years after I bought my Canon 20D dSLR I still think it's one of the best investments I ever made.

I have looked at rental but as you say, I want to be my own DOP on this project and really need to know how to get the best out of the camera so I'll need a good amount of research time with it. I'll also look into Barry's DVDs thanks for the tip.

The split diopter sounds interesting, I'll look into that.

Thanks once again, you've been really helpful.

ben
 
Glen Gustafson said:
You probably won't see good deals on any used HVXs on Ebay until they are fairly obsolete.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this... Now that the 200A is coming out there will be those who want to upgrade. You'll see HVX-200s hit eBay pretty soon. I'm guessing I'll only get around $3500~3800 USD for my creampuff cam with an 8GB card and a few extras.:cry:

To the original question... Like most zooms, the HVX lens can get pretty close at a wide setting, but the more telephoto you go the more you loose this macro capability. The solution *might* be to get a 35mm adapter and a true macro lens. Your biggest issue is bending at the sides, and a true marco lens assembly has lenses that are not round that compensate for this.

I'd recommend that instead of buying equipment hire someone who has a HVX / 35mm adapter rig and the skills to do what you want to do. Try it without the adapter and if you get what you're looking for then great, if not pop the adapter on with the right macro lens and you're going. Worst case scenario: you might have to buy the right 35mm lens. When you know exactly what it will take then you can buy the right equipment (if it will be a recurring need that is).

These are not point and shoot cams, and doing something as tricky as you are laying out will require a great deal of understanding of how the cam and any required accessories work.

Good Luck,

Bob
 
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