Using "clean" HDMI out from A5100/A6000

M. Gilden

M. Gilden

Canon DSLR Moderator
EDIT: This thread has turned into a topic about the Waxy Skin Bug, so editing the first post with relevant information at the bottom

I've recently become very interested in using an external recorder to break recording limit lengths on some of these smaller cameras, as well as avoid the overheating problem they currently exhibit (firmware update seems to have largely corrected this problem on the a6000, but the a5100 still overheats). Problem is, the output may be clean, but it seems to suffer from the "Waxy Skin Bug".

Waxy skin? OK, this is a weird one. Some guy on youtube demonstrated some sort of bug that plagues a few Sony cameras, where it enables the skin smoothing filter in video recording even when you turn it off. He was able to avoid it by turning off face detection in settings and then it seemed to stick to off when recording. But over straight hdmi out without recording, he showed it would come back! The only way to turn it off is to actually hit record on the camera as well. Problem is, that won't solve my 30 min limit or overheat problem, so there would be no point at all.

UPDATE 12/14/15: I've since managed to recreate the bug at home using my A5100 and have seen it on plenty of footage from others as well. The subject's eyes and hair was sharp, but not the skin on their face. I've contacted Sony support about it, and they claimed to not be aware of any issues, but suggested I post in their community forum since their engineers read that. So please, if you are effected by this bug or just want to help our cause, click the "ME TOO" button here and join the discussion!

http://community.sony.com/t5/Join-t...oothing-so-it-doesn-t-show-up-in/idi-p/538535
 
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Ok, so quick update. I bought a used A5100 from a member here and did some hdmi out testing between that and my A7s.

It seems the waxy skin was something that had to do with a firmware bug, which has been fixed on some cameras with subsequent updates. A7S output is nice with latest firmware. None of this waxy skin stuff that plagued the first firmware. Maybe a little noisier than the image in camera, but nothing I can't deal with. The A5100 actually seems to be about as clean internally as externally, so I'm wondering if the lack of NR is a bug on the A7S side?
Anyway, the A5100, I'm happy to report, does not overheat at all running for over an hour feeding live HDMI out. BUT... it DOES have the waxy skin bug. I tried the latest firmware and it still does it. So, that's not so good. Looks great as long as it doesn't recognize what it thinks is someone's face. Even with face detection off, it comes back on in live HDMI. Only way to turn it off is by pressing record in the camera, which then only lasts for 30 min in ideal situations, in reality it will usually overheat before it even makes it that long.

So I'm either stuck waiting for the A5100 to release a firmware update, or switching to something else. I can't afford another A7S now. Anyone here try HDMI out with an A6000? I know they got a firmware update to give it XAVCS recently, so perhaps it also quietly fixed the waxy skin bug? Someone please test it and let me know??
 
I didn't notice any particular issue with the skin on my A6000.

I tried recording via HDMI once using an Atomos Ninja, I didn't notice any reasonable advantage. I can see if I can run another test during the weekend (I have to ask to borrow the Atomos from a colleague of mine as I don't own it).

Where can I see this Youtube video which shows the issue?
 
dsp_418 said:
I didn't notice any particular issue with the skin on my A6000.I tried recording via HDMI once using an Atomos Ninja, I didn't notice any reasonable advantage. I can see if I can run another test during the weekend (I have to ask to borrow the Atomos from a colleague of mine as I don't own it).Where can I see this Youtube video which shows the issue?
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The reasonable advantage for people like me is breaking the 30 min recording limit. I'm actually rather satisfied with the codec coming from these cameras, but the ability to record an hour long speech or interview without cutting the camera or overheating is the appeal here. Anyway, here's a video that demonstrates the problem:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6GVm1Ke2dQIf you have an hdmi TV or monitor, you don't need an Atomos to test it. Just plug in to the screen and look into the camera. I can see it clearly on my 24" computer screen as a monitor, and if I cover one eye like he does in that video above, the detail in my forehead comes back. This is with my a5100, it appears the a7s doesn't do it anymore. And here's more info on the problem in general:http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic...-the-waxy-skin/?do=findComment&comment=123515
 
dsp_418 said:
I can see if I can run another test during the weekend (I have to ask to borrow the Atomos from a colleague of mine as I don't own it).

Where can I see this Youtube video which shows the issue?
Click to expand...

I have been told, sadly, that the latest A6000 update (v2.0) does not seem to fix it. The A7s and RX100 were fixed, however. I called Sony and was told if I want to get the engineer's attention, to post about it on Sony's Community website with a demonstration video.

Turns out, I searched that forum for skin smoothing bug reports, and the only camera that had someone mention it was the RX100. And that's one of the cameras that had the bug fixed. So, I figure its worth a shot. I posted about it there, and even uploaded a demonstration.

If anyone is bothered by this bug, please feel free to join the discussion there and tell Sony how you feel about it.

http://community.sony.com/t5/Alpha-...ect-in-video/m-p/538481/highlight/false#M6255
 
dsp_418 said:
I did a quick test tonight, I didn't see any issue with my A6000, firmware is 2.0.
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Check with Mark and make sure you're meeting the conditions that reveal the issue, and that you know exactly where to look. He knows his stuff.
 
Turns out the video above from YouTube (Bionz X waxy skin demonstration) was actually taken with an A6000 and v2.0. Dsp, what did you do to test? Plug it into a monitor and frame your face. Don't hit record in the camera, within a few seconds your skin detail will blur.
 
M. Gilden said:
Turns out the video above from YouTube (Bionz X waxy skin demonstration) was actually taken with an A6000 and v2.0. Dsp, what did you do to test? Plug it into a monitor and frame your face. Don't hit record in the camera, within a few seconds your skin detail will blur.
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That's exactly what I did.
 
dsp_418 said:
That's exactly what I did.
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Can you take a picture and/or video your test? You might be the first not to have this happen, or perhaps you aren't noticing it. If the former, we need to find out what you're doing differently.
 
Here's a test I made for Sony's community forum after speaking with them on the phone.
Please excuse how disheveled I look on camera. There's a good reason I stay on the OTHER side most of the time. ;)


dsp_418, can you confirm that doing this, exactly the way that I did here, did not yield the same results? I can borrow a friends A6000 and test for myself, but I was told by people who have the new firmware v2 that it is still a problem. Man, I would LOVE to be wrong tho!
 
Super in a rush right now, but quickly here's what I did (which is just the usual stuff):
Manual mode, shutter 50, ISO was 800 yesterday night, picture profile portrait (-3-3-1), HDMI to my Asus 23", and Olympus PEN 38 (@ 2.8).
I didn't watch those youtube videos yet, did I miss some particular setting?
Anyway, Image is clean and crispy, no doubt about that. I didn't have the chance to try with the Atomos yet, which is something I hope I can do during the coming week.
 
dsp_418 said:
Super in a rush right now, but quickly here's what I did (which is just the usual stuff):
Manual mode, shutter 50, ISO was 800 yesterday night, picture profile portrait (-3-3-1), HDMI to my Asus 23", and Olympus PEN 38 (@ 2.8).
I didn't watch those youtube videos yet, did I miss some particular setting?
Anyway, Image is clean and crispy, no doubt about that. I didn't have the chance to try with the Atomos yet, which is something I hope I can do during the coming week.
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Just look at the last one I posted above if you don't have time. I demonstrate exactly what causes it, make it go away and then come back by using my hand to cover my eye.

To be clear: The image IS crispy and nice (not downscaled 4k A7s-level nice, but still one of the best compact 1080p images), until it recognizes a human face in the frame. Then, the eyes and hair and everything stay nice, but the forhead, cheeks and skin around the eyes especially become smoothed out and look artificial. I demonstrated how if I cover one of my eyes, the camera doesn't detect a face and the detail in my skin comes back. This won't happen if you aren't shooting a human face.

Your settings sound fine, but if you didn't have a human face appearing in there, it won't happen. Also, you need to just leave the camera idle feeding HDMI, not actively recording. If you press record, it respects the "skin smoothing off" for the duration of recording (up to 30 min ideally).
 
I hadn't watch the youtube video before, but the issue you posted was clear to me.
So, face dead center, camera on tripod and everything is just fine. Now, I said "crispy and clean", probably to avoid any doubts I should have said that all the details are in there, with or without hand it doesn't make any difference.
As a side note, I know there is no signature pointing at any of my work on my profile (by the way for privacy reasons), which might lead someone thinking I'm a dubious person, but trust me I've been working as a designer for 20 years now and last 15 involved in the tv and vfx. I can tell if something is wrong with an image, is part of my work.

Now, going back to the topic, I was curious about this and I wanted to try with my wife's camera, which happens to be a Sony A5000, not the A5100 but still...
As soon as I plugged the camera I saw the waxy effect, a couple of test covering the eye with my hand, back and forth, bla bla, issue coming and going.
Then, I turned off the Face Detection from her camera as well (it was still on from factory's settings), issue is gone, no way to bring it back, unless I turn on the face detection again.

I don't know what else to say, perhaps I'm glad I'm not experiencing the same problem.
I was thinking to borrow the Atomos from a friend of mine anyway for other reasons, I can run another test but only I don't know when this will happen, is going to be a very busy week.
Hope this can help somehow.

Best,
Marco
 
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dsp_418 said:
I hadn't watch the youtube video before, but the issue you posted was clear to me.So, face dead center, camera on tripod and everything is just fine. Now, I said "crispy and clean", probably to avoid any doubts I should have said that all the details are in there, with or without hand it doesn't make any difference.As a side note, I know there is no signature pointing at any of my work on my profile (by the way for privacy reasons), which might lead someone thinking I'm a dubious person, but trust me I've been working as a designer for 20 years now and last 15 involved in the tv and vfx. I can tell if something is wrong with an image, is part of my work.Now, going back to the topic, I was curious about this and I wanted to try with my wife's camera, which happens to be a Sony A5000, not the A5100 but still...As soon as I plugged the camera I saw the waxy effect, a couple of test covering the eye with my hand, back and forth, bla bla, issue coming and going.Then, I turned off the Face Detection from her camera as well (it was still on from factory's settings), issue is gone, no way to bring it back, unless I turn on the face detection again.I don't know what else to say, perhaps I'm glad I'm not experiencing the same problem.I was thinking to borrow the Atomos from a friend of mine anyway for other reasons, I can run another test but only I don't know when this will happen, is going to be a very busy week.Hope this can help somehow.Best,Marco
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Interesting. And you are not pressing record in camera? Turning off face detection, in my tests and from those I've gathered online, only seems to be respected when the camera is actively recording anything. Just letting the hdmi go without pressing record has not respected that setting. Either way, face detection is useful for AF and metering, having it on shouldn't also bring skin smoothing, but if turning it off fixed the issue, I'd be content with just that. Problem is, you are literally the first person I've heard report the problem isn't there anymore by turning it off in the menu. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I just want to confirm - you are NOT pressing record, and camera is in video mode right? Like, you can take the physical memory card out and this is still what happens? The first YouTube video linked in the opening post claims to have been taken on an a6000 with firmware v2.Ok, something doesn't check out. I'm going to have to borrow one and see for myself. I'd be surprised if the a5000 had the bug addressed!
 
M. Gilden said:
[...]I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I just want to confirm - you are NOT pressing record, and camera is in video mode right? [...]
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Nope, as I wrote a few post above I'm in manual mode. I stay in manual for everything, from stills to video.
 
dsp_418 said:
Nope, as I wrote a few post above I'm in manual mode. I stay in manual for everything, from stills to video.
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Oooh, interesting. Thing is, if feeding to an external, you won't get the correct aspect ratio or sound unless in movie mode! For anything in camera, I'm also all about M, but if you want to tell the camera to feed a constant live clean hdmi externally, the only way to properly do that is in movie mode! That's very strange if the bug doesn't exist in M. I'll look into that. It won't fix anything for anyone trying to get a clean feed, but it is interesting.
 
Just tested my a5100 in M mode. Sure enough, it seems like the bug doesn't show up, but the image quality is horrible! I set the aspect to 16:9 to get the correct image size, but it's still moire and aliasing all over the place. I mean, we're talking worse than any Canon BAD. It doesn't feed a properly resampled image unless you hit record or switch to movie mode (this must be why they say use movie mode for atomos recording- well, that and sound). So my choices are get noisy poorly resampled footage without the bug, or get clean footage and try to avoid faces. Not really a nice situation to find yourself in. Sony needs to do something.
 
(I like learning a lot of tiny details about how the cameras work in this thread, but man, this "feature" sucks, and the fact that it's so difficult to turn off sucks even more)
 
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