Used Varicam 35 & LT kits selling (relatively) cheap? Crazy to buy one in 2023?

[norvan5]

Hi all,

I’ve noticed a lot of Varicam 35 and a few LT kits on ebay and the like lately, going relatively cheap. Especially the pl mount Varicam 35, with kits in good condition selling for less than 10k and some even for less than 5k. The LT kits are priced higher than the 35 for some reason, despite being the junior brother. Still a lot of money, of course, but I always looked at the Varicam 35 in the same way as a Ferrari; great that it exists but I’ll never afford one.

Apart from these being “old” cams now, is there any reason why folk are selling up? I mean, the cams can still produce great images and are still top end broadcast/netflix approved, right? Are they just getting a bit outdated now? Too big & cumbersome? Expensive media? Clients not wanting the cam or don’t know enough about it to rate it?

Lastly, would it be crazy to consider picking up an “old” Varicam cheap in 2023 for narrative/music video/corporate stuff? Asking for a friend ;-)

 

[morgan_moore]

i would suggest.. You have it basically correct.
NO AUTOFOCUS - its not 2022 any more - 70-200 walk towards - aint gonna happen like a $500 sony.
Heavy - not going on a gimbal or on a car or on any grip equipment not made by Ronford.
and also No Autofocus.

Of course pictures are great ND is great, SDI is great XLR is great build quality is great

And as a money maker? Producers have heard of.. (and will hire owners of)
arri, red, c500 fx9 fx6 - good or bad nothing else gets rented because the producer would need 1) to trust you 2) have a brain. Neither is happening.

So its a fun toy like my zcam (or a bm 4k). Nice files for indy projects where the focus is allowed to dance. And my z cam might be a more fun toy.. because its small so I can sellotape it into a fridge for that funky reveal shot.

Repairs. doubltelss $1000 a go.

Even that smaller panny is tempting and the F55, F35, F65 or whatever.. but I personally cant see them as part of a profitable owner op business.

 

[norvan5]

i would suggest.. You have it basically correct.
NO AUTOFOCUS - its not 2022 any more - 70-200 walk towards - aint gonna happen like a $500 sony.
Heavy - not going on a gimbal or on a car or on any grip equipment not made by Ronford.
and also No Autofocus.

Of course pictures are great ND is great, SDI is great XLR is great build quality is great

And as a money maker? Producers have heard of.. (and will hire owners of)
arri, red, c500 fx9 fx6 - good or bad nothing else gets rented because the producer would need 1) to trust you 2) have a brain. Neither is happening.

So its a fun toy like my zcam (or a bm 4k). Nice files for indy projects where the focus is allowed to dance. And my z cam might be a more fun toy.. because its small so I can sellotape it into a fridge for that funky reveal shot.

Repairs. doubltelss $1000 a go.

Even that smaller panny is tempting and the F55, F35, F65 or whatever.. but I personally cant see them as part of a profitable owner op business.

Great summary there, thanks. All really valid points. I just came across this guy talking about his (mixed) experience of buying a Varicam LT in 2022. Worth a watch: https://youtu.be/9dCWngFAefY

 

[CharlesPapert]

I bought an LT in 2021 as I had an opportunity to pay it off and then some on a longterm job. The going price was pretty similar to what they are going for now so it was well worth it. I've thought about selling but it has been more useful for me to keep it at this point, and have continued to be able to make a bit of money on it for short jobs. I just shot a narrative piece with it (and a second one rented from a friend) and that dual ISO came in super handy.

As you guessed, the V35 has devalued because of its size and weight. The LT does 95% of the same things with the same sensor at a considerable reduction in both areas. It is funny to me how the LT is viewed as "heavy" now, but all things are relative and the bar shifts quickly these days!

My guess is that we are one to two generations away from the Varicams being truly outdated, depending on how you define and use it (for me autofocus isn't a consideration, vs morgan_moore's emphasis--I've never had anything but the PL mount on my camera). Arguably, the picture quality and feature set are currently unmatched at that price point, but the top resolution capping at 4K may be restrictive for certain jobs (I've come up against it for multiple aspect ratio deliverables).

For me, the dual ISO remains the killer utility of these cameras, along with the picture quality. So I'm keeping mine for now, I think it's worth more than I can sell it for.

 

[norvan5]

I bought an LT in 2021 as I had an opportunity to pay it off and then some on a longterm job. The going price was pretty similar to what they are going for now so it was well worth it. I've thought about selling but it has been more useful for me to keep it at this point, and have continued to be able to make a bit of money on it for short jobs. I just shot a narrative piece with it (and a second one rented from a friend) and that dual ISO came in super handy.

As you guessed, the V35 has devalued because of its size and weight. The LT does 95% of the same things with the same sensor at a considerable reduction in both areas. It is funny to me how the LT is viewed as "heavy" now, but all things are relative and the bar shifts quickly these days!

My guess is that we are one to two generations away from the Varicams being truly outdated, depending on how you define and use it (for me autofocus isn't a consideration, vs morgan_moore's emphasis--I've never had anything but the PL mount on my camera). Arguably, the picture quality and feature set are currently unmatched at that price point, but the top resolution capping at 4K may be restrictive for certain jobs (I've come up against it for multiple aspect ratio deliverables).

For me, the dual ISO remains the killer utility of these cameras, along with the picture quality. So I'm keeping mine for now, I think it's worth more than I can sell it for.

Thanks very much for your helpful insight, Charles. I suspect that you are 100% correct in saying that the varicams are about a generation or two from being truly outdated, especially as higher resolution 8k cams in a small form factor come to prominence.

With your LT on jobs, are you routinely recording to the P2 Express media or taking a signal out to an external recorder?

 

[Run&Gun]

The V35 and LT, basically the whole VariCam third generation line was just... A miss. The first two gen's were absolute work horses that were everywhere and made their owners stupid amounts of money. But Panasonic just dropped the ball with the V35, HS and LT(and Pure). They wanted the real Hollywood market with the V35 and more or less ignored their base were the first two gens were entrenched and loved for the better part of a decade and a half. The pricing was stupid and they weren't going to dethrone Arri. Then they came out with the LT. Ergonomic and design wise, it was(is) junk. One of my dealers sent me an LT for a month, so that I could give them feedback on it. Why, I'm not sure, because they were already shipping and Panasonic wasn't changing anything. Then at some point, Panasonic dropped the price to around 10K or so for just the LT body and they still couldn't sell them. A little before that, a dealer offered me a V35 demo unit for around $16K. After owning three previous generation Vari's and shooting God-only-knows how many 1,000's of hours with them, I ended my journey with the VariCam. None of my clients wanted anything to do with them anymore. The cameras never really caught on or gained widespread acceptance in the same way. And despite being able to make a nice image and having some nice features, it's my belief that Netflix and their 4K mandate is the main reason that Panasonic even sold as many as they did. I think I can count on one hand the number I've ever seen them in the wild. And that's counting when I shot on one for Netflix. Lol

To me, the Arri Amira is more of a true successor to the 1st/2nd gen VariCam(s), than the V35/LT. And unless I had some specific reason to, I'd be more likely to pick up a 2700 on eBay than a V35 or LT.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Thanks very much for your helpful insight, Charles. I suspect that you are 100% correct in saying that the varicams are about a generation or two from being truly outdated, especially as higher resolution 8k cams in a small form factor come to prominence.

With your LT on jobs, are you routinely recording to the P2 Express media or taking a signal out to an external recorder?

I've only ever recorded to the P2 cards. I have Atomos recorders in case I ever need to go that route, but have had no reason yet to do so.

Run&Gun...yikes, that's a pretty damning review! I think it's reasonably fair to suggest that the ability to meet a "true 4K" mandate was indeed part of the reason they got some attention, but the dual ISO feature was really quite huge for a number of users, including me. I shot my first series on the V35 in 2016 and was able to light a stage with less than half the wattage I would have with Alexas, which significantly stretched our lighting budget.For the next few years I alternated between Varicam and Alexas depending on the requirements of the job, but having the Alexa top out at 1250 ISO represented a two stop functional difference and that was significant to me. To date I've shot something like seven seasons of episodic television spread out acrosss multiple shows, and a number of commercials and short films. As a point of reference, I can only remember using the original 2/3" Varicams a few times, I used the F900's much more in those days. And even though I owned a DVX100 for a couple of years, I was never much of a fan of the Panasonic "look" through those years, was more of a Sony guy. To me the Varicam was a big step up in noise management and color science, and much better than Sony's offerings at the time (F55, F5). So, interestingly enough, we had exactly the opposite experience!

Below are a few frame grabs from my first series on the V35 as mentioned above. The bottom two are from the apartment set on stage. Shooting at 2000 ISO I could use a 5k instead of 10K as the sun source and smaller instruments to light the translight backdrop outside the windows.

 

[morgan_moore]

CP
As my 'experience' has broadened into some 'full crew' jobs I would say this Panny is as good 'full crew camera' as any other? (maybe not the A35 - but really any of these cams will not let a show down.. bad art, story, talent will)

A Full crew shoot would have operator, first second and trainee on each camera and grips and steadi operators.

But full crew shoots only rarely use owner op equipment - they use rental houses- that yours has been used suprises me.. this shows you must be chums with the producers (i dont mean that in a bad way)

And that is it. For many these full crew cameras are not gonna be a good investment for the owner opertor / small corporate production house.

If you dont have a full crew..
-they are hard to carry
-they require costy grip
-they are hard to focus
-they eat batteries

So for the owner op really they are a weekend toy for making art with - which of course is a legit activity

I would say you are a rare owner op who has made profit from a full crew camera?

 

[norvan5]

Below are a few frame grabs from my first series on the V35 as mentioned above. The bottom two are from the apartment set on stage. Shooting at 2000 ISO I could use a 5k instead of 10K as the sun source and smaller instruments to light the translight backdrop outside the windows.

Nice work there and cheers for sharing! The dual native ISO looks to be a most useful feature.

 

[NorBro]

IMO, anyone considering this camera at this point would be more interested in the color science or maybe just a Panasonic cinema camera in general - but not specifically for the dual ISO as it's pretty outdated on this system.

I think Panasonic was the first to offer it - and 2000 or so is obviously better than an 800, 500 base - but modern cameras (especially mirrorless') are pretty clean 3200+ (with some very good at 6400 and one or two dedicated ones past that).

With that said, this system has an attractive IQ.

 

[norvan5]

IMO, anyone considering this camera at this point would be more interested in the color science or maybe just a Panasonic cinema camera in general - but not specifically for the dual ISO as it's pretty outdated on this system.

I think Panasonic was the first to offer it - and 2000 or so is obviously better than an 800, 500 base - but modern cameras (especially mirrorless') are pretty clean 3200+ (with some very good at 6400 and one or two dedicated ones past that).

With that said, this system has an attractive IQ.

For sure, the IQ is the primary draw. I was just thinking that my love for Panasonic cams over the years (having shot with dvx, hvx, hmc150, af100, gh1 gh2 gh4 gh5mkii) might make me especially susceptible to being drawn to their aging flagships models now.

 

[CharlesPapert]

IMO, anyone considering this camera at this point would be more interested in the color science or maybe just a Panasonic cinema camera in general - but not specifically for the dual ISO as it's pretty outdated on this system.

I think Panasonic was the first to offer it - and 2000 or so is obviously better than an 800, 500 base - but modern cameras (especially mirrorless') are pretty clean 3200+ (with some very good at 6400 and one or two dedicated ones past that).

With that said, this system has an attractive IQ.

I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to. If we are including mirrorless cameras, seems like the Lumix line is a better comparison than the Varicam. If the assumption is a full featured camera with all the requisite I/O and similar trimmings, the only Arri that approaches this level of usability at high ISO is the Alexa35. With Sony, you've got the Venices. And the higher end RED's. But all of those cameras cost considerably more than the Varicams. So I think it still stands alone in terms of being a cine-style camera that costs under $10K with that much ISO flexbility (please correct me if I'm missing something comparable).

 

[CharlesPapert]

For many these full crew cameras are not gonna be a good investment for the owner opertor / small corporate production house.

If you dont have a full crew..
-they are hard to carry
-they require costy grip
-they are hard to focus
-they eat batteries

So for the owner op really they are a weekend toy for making art with - which of course is a legit activity

I think the LT with a primes or lightweight zoom is certainly manageable by a small crew of DP/operator and one AC--I use mine on my O'Connor 1030 sticks which makes for a portable and nimble setup. If one is used to mirrorless or a small form factor camera, obviously this will seem like a brute--my background is in much heavier cameras so in comparison, this still feels minimal to me. Focus--I provide a remote FIZ to the assistant, they almost all pull off monitors these days--pretty easy. Eating batteries--no more so than the smaller cameras, but of course they use smaller batteries. Many of the small setups I've seen use a series of onboard batteries (camera, monitor, transmitter etc) which I think is an unholy nightmare vs one battery powering everything. Obviously, if we are talking a one-person run and gun, there are many smaller/lighter options out there. I have used my camera a number of times without what you are defining as "full crew" and it's plenty manageable, for me at least.

But full crew shoots only rarely use owner op equipment - they use rental houses- that yours has been used suprises me.. this shows you must be chums with the producers (i dont mean that in a bad way)
I would say you are a rare owner op who has made profit from a full crew camera?

I know plenty of colleagues who own RED's, Alexas, etc. and have done quite nicely on them on a variety of different sized jobs--probably more than me. Of course this is a market-based thing.

I do some smaller jobs where I am able to fully service the camera dept. without requiring outside rentals, as I own just enough to get the job done. For the bigger shows, it's pretty rare that I can't get some gear on as a rental. It's not a matter of being "friends" with the producers, ultimately they don't care whether a mattebox or monitor comes from me or the rental house as long as we are fully covered. Generally speaking, I'll assemble a gear list, the rental house will bid it out, the producers will haggle a discount with them, then we apply that discount equally to both the rental house's gear and my gear. Sometimes the rental house bills for all of it and then reimburses me, other times I can bill production directly. The key is that the production isn't paying me a dime more for my gear than if it came from the rental house. Unfortunately on a longer job that can mean a truly brutal discount--I've experienced 85% and beyond, which is heartbreaking!

Worth mentioning that some studio/network shows have strict policies about renting gear from individuals on payroll, and will sometimes request proof of ownership from the rental house to make sure they aren't subrenting from us (lovely). That's a situation where I simply cannot get gear on, unless it is very much a specialty, and it requires a lengthy petitioning process with the studio.

And finally--it's pretty rare I get a producer or director dictating the camera or lenses to me, which I have gathered happens more frequently in the smaller jobs/markets. The recent time that did happen, by coincidence that particular producer wanted to go with the Varicam because they had familiarity with it from their previous show, so that worked out well (and was in fact the show that led me to buy mine as an investment).

 

[morgan_moore]

I think the LT with a primes or lightweight zoom is certainly manageable by a small crew of DP/operator and one AC--I

All true.

I just think - maybe you dont agree - that one can creat awesom content with an R5c and two AF lenses.

AF lenses mean no need for an external monitor and no external batteries, no skilful first a/c - that person can operate B (which of course can be afforded)

It just shrinks to a way that is not seen a decade ago.

The truth is that huge amounts of paid for production are done in this manner - like 90% of content.

And the netflix level of show is 10% of content

And such a camera only really work in that 10%

Hence I think it is not a strong business item unless you are a member of the 10% club.

Certainly no 90% client is going to be impressed by a camera that continually loses focus and is a dog to carry around - they will think it is worse thanan A7s or r5c.

Nothing I say implies that I dont think the image is amazing!

==

As Ive spent a little time in the 10% club it has made me even more extreme about only using such a camera when you have a grip to carry it, an a/c to pull it and a trainee to charge it. (and a production to fund it!)

 

[CharlesPapert]

So if understand the reasoning, you are saying that worldwide, 90% of shoots where people are being paid (industrial, corporate, commercial, branded, broadcast, reality, scripted) is being done on cameras using still lenses on autofocus. Do I have that right? Do others agree with that percentage?

 

[morgan_moore]

ITN (the cnn of the UK?) were shooting 3 mirrorless sonies last week for a government minister for the big news!

Im not saying my numbers are 100% legit. of course not. but then there is other work like long record zoom while rolling, massive DOF conferences, court cases, legal stuff, that would not be typically the (large chip) varicam either

So probably 90% of large chip work, where the client makes a repeat booking might be on af mirrorless/af large chip (fx6)????

Of course there are D1ckheads 22 YO's running around trying to focus a BM 6k off the back and losing themselves clients!

--

As a C200 owner with a rig vlock and big fluffy mic Ive turned heads in a bad way while my oppo was belting about with his no rig R5c

There is a whole reason it worked for him.. no sound (client wants stock) no long shots (client really want a little montage and some insta shots)

If you dont need sound, dont have to roll long and bit of wobble is OK the r5c is shockingly good

 

[NorBro]

I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to. If we are including mirrorless cameras, seems like the Lumix line is a better comparison than the Varicam. If the assumption is a full featured camera with all the requisite I/O and similar trimmings, the only Arri that approaches this level of usability at high ISO is the Alexa35. With Sony, you've got the Venices. And the higher end RED's. But all of those cameras cost considerably more than the Varicams. So I think it still stands alone in terms of being a cine-style camera that costs under $10K with that much ISO flexbility (please correct me if I'm missing something comparable).

There are a handful of them with similar trimmings under $10K (FX6, C70, R5 C, C200, C300 Mark III, URSA 4.6K and 12K, multiple options from Z CAM and Kinefinity). Maybe not all will meet the above requisite I/O in every way but the same can be said about the Varicams when comparing to others.

Only a couple of them market dual ISO, but most are clean at 2000 and above anyway.

 

[CharlesPapert]

There are a handful of them with similar trimmings under $10K (FX6, C70, R5 C, C200, C300 Mark III, URSA 4.6K and 12K, multiple options from Z CAM and Kinefinity). Maybe not all will meet the above requisite I/O in every way but the same can be said about the Varicams when comparing to others.

Only a couple of them market dual ISO, but most are clean at 2000 and above anyway.

That's the part I'm actually interested in. Which of the above can produce a perfectly useable image at, let's say, 5000 ISO? The Varicams do show a certain amount of noise there (it's not directly comparable to the native 800 mode in that regard), but I've always been able to knock it out using NR without any penalty. It's been a long time since I've used a Canon so I don't know where they stand. I thought I'd long heard the Blackmagics don't stand up in the high ISO category. So I'd love to learn how the other manufacturers stack up in this regard!

 

[NorBro]

Yeah, I think the newer URSAs max out at 3200K. The first URSA maxed out at 800 but had terrible FPN so it was a 400-only camera, ha. (This was 2014 though.)

5000 is probably pushing it for a couple of them, but I think the LT is pretty noisy at 5000 as well (as you may have hinted at).

I'd say more like 3200 for all of them (since we were talking about 2000) besides the newer Canons which I would feel comfortable using above that (but not the C200).

From what I remember, the F6 was petty clean at higher numbers: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._frame_6k.html

There's a new MAVO but haven't used it...markets dual ISOs: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...5_digital.html

 

[Tom Roper]

I don't mind dating myself but my photographic darkroom days, 400 ASA was fast, 800 was a push and 1000 Tri-X Pan B/W was really fast. 3200 on the U12K is child's play. It's not for turning night into day like 25,000-50,000 on a Sony but it's my best camera for wedding video, even dark venues. 3200 is the same for all cameras, it's only the noise that differentiates.The 8K video below was all shot in 12K at 3200 ISO, 59.94 fps, f/2.0-4.8, most of it between f/2.8-3.7. The subject matter was of course, the Christmas lights not the faces, but even there you can see it is just fine, there was illumination to spare even stopped-down and at the higher frame rate. Some NR is used but with BRAW it doesn't get smudged or noticeably softened. If it did, I would use something else but I'm completely satisfied with U12K performance in ordinary low light or night time and weddings.