Ursa Mini 4.6k to Varicam LT upgrade.

A

Alex Derrick

Active member
Hi guys,

I wrapped a 3 week proof of concept documentary in Allahabad, India in July shot on the Ursa Mini 46k. It was a one man band personal project, and the Ursa served me fairly well. I missed a lot of shots at two important festivals that went on into the late evening, and I have a good chunk of great footage that I had to scrap because it is riddled with FPN in the lower 1/3 of the exposure. That being said, the color and image from the Ursa can be really nice, and it doesn't take a lot of work in Resolve to get some nice mojo going.

However, there is something about the varicam footage I'm seeing online that has sparked my interests. I can't put my finger on it, but it has a certain charm and character that I think would mesh well with the vision I have for my next project in India early 2017.

I now have some investors, and am thinking about making the jump to Varicam for the dual 800/5000ISO. I am wondering if anyone on this thread has had a go w/ the LT and Ursa and can give me some feedback between the two. They seem like two completely different cameras. I am thinking about renting an LT for a weekend later this month when I get back to Hollywood.

I would like to know specifically, how the dynamic range on the LT compares to the Ursa. In my experience, the ursa might have 15 stops but the color gets pretty thin in the upper ranges of exposure, and the lower expsoure can be riddled with fixed pattern signal noise that can not be cleaned up with noise reduction tools.


I'm also curious about moire, aliasing, and how the color science differs on each camera. I'm hoping some feedback from LT users might inspire me to proceed w/ a rental and maybe a purchase.


Many thanks in advance,

-Alex
 
Hi Milan.

Thanks for those two Links. Congratulations on your purchase of a Varicam. I look forward to seeing some of your footage in the future.

Regarding the two links. I thought the Varicam's performance against the Red camera was impressive. I think the Ursa would also be pretty close to Red in raw.

On the youtube link, the narrator states that the Varicam looks like video compared to Alexa or Ursa. I've seen some good samples online that showcase that Panasonic is capable of absolutely cinematic and gorgeous looks in the right hands.
https://vimeo.com/167484940
https://vimeo.com/159832983


In many scenarios the Ursa can also look very electronic. It can also be very harsh because of the clinical sharpness, and hard because of the texture of the sensor pattern and fixed pattern noise. Also, its just my humble opinion, but even the Arri family of cameras can look like video depending on operation.
https://vimeo.com/18316283


Thanks again for the links and getting the discussion rolling.

Cheers!
-Alex Derrick
--

Milan O. said:
Good morning Mr. Derrick!

Unfortunately I don't have any real life experience with the two cameras, although I have ordered the Varicam LT and I hope to get it delivered soon. While trying to find out more about the camera I came across these two tests, hopefully you'll find them helpful:

http://www.thebriannguyen.com/2016/...varicam-lt-complete-dynamic-range-comparison/

https://youtu.be/Rk7ZFx7j8f8
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • skin.jpg
    skin.jpg
    49.7 KB · Views: 0
I don't pay too much attention to "cinematic look" or "video look" opinions, since I've had a hard time understanding what it actually means. The definition of the expressions seem to vary once you start looking at images that people claim to have a cinematic or video look. It also seems like some people think that it's all in the camera, but I'm pretty sure that the camera is only a part of the equation of what creates a nice looking image. Lighting, location, actors, make-up, set, sound and so on also contribute very much to make something feel "cinematic" IMO. Films shown on cinema also look different from each other... So what is a cinematic look? I don't know. To me it's important that the camera has the possibilty to gather the necessary data, the rest is up to me and the people I'm working with.

The reason I chose the Varicam is because I got it for a good price and I see it as a well built camera with plenty features which can be used in different scenarios. I see it as an all-round camera for professional use. It might not be the "best" camera at anything, but it's a very versatile and good option for many circumstances, although it seems to excel at low light shooting compared to other professional cameras.

Now, I haven't used it yet, my opinion is solely based on the information I've been able to find about it.
In a thread I started about a week ago I compared it mostly to the Red Scarlet-W but also to cameras like the Ursa Mini 4.6K. Although the UM 4.6K seems to be able to produce nice images the bad QC, lack of ND-filters and lesser low light capabilities makes it a less intereseting option on my behalf. If I was the one deciding on how it should've been made and sold, I would've sold it for a higher price with high demands on the QC. Even if they charged $3000 more, it still would've been the most affordable camera with those specs. Sometimes cheaper just isn't better. :)
 
Last edited:
note in the video he says the "motion" looks like video, but the cameras image looks like the ALEXA. no way of telling what he was looking at, the cameras does shoot 59.97, and there is no way of telling what he was referring to. I've owned the cameras since it began shipping and NO the motion in 24p or 23.98 does not look like video.
The fact is this camera is essentially A 4k s35 Alexa (because there is a 4k alexa, Called the ALEXA 65)
 
Hi Sean,

Thanks for the link to the content shot w/ Varicam. I watched a couple of episodes of Master of None with Aziz Ansari's. Love, love, love the color, the skin tones, the image texture, and the 5000ISO evening interiors and exteriors looked sweet.

What has been your experience with moire on the Varicam? I'm starting to find that the ursa is fairly prone to rainbow type of artifacts and might benefit from a olpf.

sean007davis said:
also there is now a shot on Varicam list, you can check out those films and TV shows. the Varicam 35 and the Varicam LT have the same sensor
http://info.panasonic.com/varicam-m...SCI-2012-SEM&gclid=CJ3u9eGY_s4CFYkehgod6fsLCA
Click to expand...
 
I haven't noticed any moire issues and i have shot the camera in all sorts of situations.
My honest opinion is that the only reason to buy an URSA or anything else, is that there isn't a budget for the Varicam LT.
and honestly having owned the camera a few months I can say that a lot of the stuff that has been shot with it isn't using the camera to half of it's potential.
the Dynamic range and V.log let you go in a any direction you chose in your grade (Unlike the RED, SONY or CANON cameras whose colors can only be pushed to look good in very particular windows).
I'm waiting to see how see what advantages the RAW images adds to things, but with what you are able to do with the Panasonic codecs and Vlog, I don't think there will be a real need to use it out of a narrative feature and effects work
 
Hi Sean,

Good to hear about the moire. The ursa has some issues with this. A rainbow pattern can be triggered on natural weave fabrics (a basic cotton shirt) and a splotchy magenta hue has popped up on luxury weaves (see attached). I need to do more testing, but I think this is going to be troublesome for people who are shooting corporate talking heads, fashion, or narrative content.
2.jpg3.jpg

Also, I noticed in your post footer that you have a some 1.33x and 2x anamorphic glass. Does the varicam do 4:3 anamorphic, or de-squeeze monitoring? The new blackmagic firmware 4.0 update has 1.33x and 2x desqueuze and 4:3 crop sensor recording which is probably the coolest feature on the camera.

I'm thinking Varicam LT w/ the PS Technik 35-70 1.5x Anamorphic zoom (or SLR Magic 1.33x Anamorphic Primes) would be the ultimate indi cinema package.

-Cheers,
Alex

ps. Thank you for your time and well informed conversation.
 
Varicam will do both 2x and 1.33x desqueeze and output over the HDSDI outs.
yes the all the s35mm varicams the Varicam 35 and the varicam LT do 4:3 anamorphic and provide proper monitoring solutions.
Yes I've tested the anamorphic mode in the ursa but I find the lack of interchangeable mounts make it a bit of a wasted feature.
If you have an EF mount URSA 4.6 body there aren't exactly a lot of EF anamorphic lenses. For any proper anamorphic lens use, you really need a PL.
if you have a PL mount URSA body then you don't have the option of the cheaper lenses when not shooting anamorphic.
I think all cameras should ship with user interchangeable mounts, Like the kinefinity and the Varicam LT.
I'm a Big Fan or the P/S Technik IMS system (as well as almost everything they make)
the 1.5X P/S anamorphic zooms would really be the go to anamorphic zooms for the Varicam on an indi feature. Proper budget I'd go with the cooke or angenieux anamorphic zooms
 
Hi Sean,

Good to know that you have some experience with the Ursa!

I have a couple of more questions.

1) How would you compare rolling shutter between the two? I saw a couple of quick pans on the netflix content that looked pretty good, but I wasn't sure if that was corrected in post.

2) I was thinking to get start w/ one 256GB P2 Card to get my feet wet. How much footage can you realistically record on one card? And also how are download speeds w/ the card reader?

-A
 
Just to point out, the Odyssey7Q+ will soon support the RAW from the VariCamLT. The Odyssey7Q+ allows monitoring of anamorphic desqueeze in 1.33x, 1.5x, and 2.0x, and also offers magnification of the image to arrive at proper display of 1.78, 2.67 and 2.39 screen ratios in combination with the different desqueezes. These are the most common way people generally use anamorphic glass. The disquieted image is not only on the Odyssey OLED screen but also output over SDI and HDMI so that everyone on set can view a proper image. It is the ONLY device in the industry that offers this output.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Just to point out, the Odyssey7Q+ will soon support the RAW from the VariCamLT. The Odyssey7Q+ allows monitoring of anamorphic desqueeze in 1.33x, 1.5x, and 2.0x, and also offers magnification of the image to arrive at proper display of 1.78, 2.67 and 2.39 screen ratios in combination with the different desqueezes. These are the most common way people generally use anamorphic glass. The disquieted image is not only on the Odyssey OLED screen but also output over SDI and HDMI so that everyone on set can view a proper image. It is the ONLY device in the industry that offers this output.
Click to expand...

Do I remember it correctly that there will have to be two SDI-cables going out from the camera? Also, which resolutions and frame rates will be available and will the O7Q(+) have to record to two SSDs at the same time for HFR? (That is if you are allowed to let us know at this stage.)
 
I own the PRO EX package that came with two of the 256gb P2 cards.
I have never filled up a full P2 card. Note I shoot sports (boxing) and Automotive.
the only time I've seem a full P2 from a varicam LT was about a month ago on season 2 of MASTER OF NONE (they're now using 512gb P2 cards)
The cards dump pretty quickly over the USB 3.0 reader
also cool discovery I tried my 8gb P2 from my HVX (Memories) and it works in the varicam LT.I have to test out recording and see what formats i can get away with on the old 8Gb card but I guess this officially Validates that P2 technical Emmy because I'm certain I've had that 8gb card for at least 7 or 8 years, it went from the HVX to the HPX 170 and has seen thousans of hours of use.
 
sean007davis said:
also cool discovery I tried my 8gb P2 from my HVX (Memories) and it works in the varicam LT.I have to test out recording and see what formats i can get away with on the old 8Gb card but I guess this officially Validates that P2 technical Emmy because I'm certain I've had that 8gb card for at least 7 or 8 years, it went from the HVX to the HPX 170 and has seen thousans of hours of use.
Click to expand...

any idea if the microP2 adapter will work with the LT?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top