Update issues w sLog to Samurai, PIX, Ki Pro, Hyperdeck etc

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Lenilenapi

Carbonite Member
I'm just getting sLog installed on my F3 and am completely confused by the current state of problems that have been encountered on the various 10 bit recorders both with Pro Res and DNxHD, as well as with the 2 SDI ports, PsF and other outputs setups on the camera.

Is it possible to just get a general update here on what the issues are for each?

I'm hoping if people can add comments to each category below maybe we can all stay informed before we blow a shoot. (Please remain succinct and leave extraneous comments to other threads so this could be a quick resource and be updated as problems are fixed or new ones appear.)

F3 General SDI settings and output ports:

Samurai:

PIX:

Ki-Pro:

Ki-Pro mini:

Hyperdeck Shuttle:
 
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Other than the issues reported on this and other forums in regards to the PIX and Ki Pro Mini, I cannot comment. I can, however, provide some insight into the Samurai which I own and use. Initially, there seemed to be a problem with the appearance of a few "green" clips that was allegedly resolved with the last firmware update, although there have been a few reports of its persistence. I personally have not encountered that issue. There have also been some issues related to SSD's, but this has little to do with the Samuai, and everything to do with the drives—often stated as Intel drives, series 320—themselves. In fact, if you peruse the various gaming forums, where the very same drives have been used in various computers, the same issues have been noted. Once again, it doesn't appear to involve all drives in that series. I have a 320 series Intel SSD and it works fine. I also have their X25 series which works fine as well. To my knowledge, there have not been any other issues. Atmos just released another firmware update for the Samurai, and they seem to be coming out hot and heavy. Their DNxHD upgrade is still pending. In summary, I'm very happy with the Samurai. It's easy to use and has been reliable as well. Hope this helped.
 
Lenilenapi said:
F3 General SDI settings and output ports:

Samurai:

PIX:

Ki-Pro:

Ki-Pro mini:

Hyperdeck Shuttle:
Click to expand...

On all of them you need set F3 to 1.5G YPbPr422 & S-Log as per my knowledge none of these recorders support 3G SDI or dual link SDI. Recorder should be connected to SDI-A. SDI-B can either be a clone of SDI-A or can have applied LUT for de-logged preview of video.

To have 4:4:4 (or 50/60p at 4:2:2) you need Cinedeck or other recorder with either 3G or dual link support. For 4:4:4 at 50/60p you need recorder with dual 3G SDI- as far as I know nothing can do it at this time except Sony's SR high-end recorder (I'm not 100% sure thought).
If I'm wrong please correct me.

update: SR-R1 only records up to 30p 4:4:4 from F3 (but it can do 2 streams at 30p 4:4:4, eg for 3D).

 
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Here' my attempt to summarize the above and info on some other threads. Please add to or correct this information

F3 General SDI settings and output ports:
- you need set F3 to 1.5G YPbPr422 & S-Log
-Recorder should be connected to SDI-A. SDI-B can either be a clone of SDI-A or can have applied LUT for de-logged preview of video.
- To have 4:4:4 (or 50/60p at 4:2:2) you need Cinedeck or other recorder with either 3G or dual link support.
- SR-R1 only records up to 30p 4:4:4 from F3 (but it can do 2 streams at 30p 4:4:4, eg for 3D).


Samurai:
- Problems with "green clips" have been resolved with latest software - IS THIS 100% CORRECT?
- Make sure you use approved drives
- initial run of SDI adapter cables may have been faulty so make sure you have good cables

PIX:
I am confused by all persistent problem reports on this thread :
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?272984-Colossal-PIX240-issue-with-ProRes-422

CAN ANYONE SUMMARIZE PIX PROBLEMS?

Post from Sound devices in that thread:
"With regards to the Sony PsF output issue, whilst we are looking for the solution, here is a possible workaround:
- In the F3's [Video Set/23.98p Output] menu, set to 1080i59.94 (2-3 pulldown).
- Then on PIX, apply a 2-3 pulldown removal by setting the PIX file resolution/rate to 1080p23.976. This removes the 2-3 cadence in real-time. The resulting recording will be true 1080p23.976."


Ki-Pro:

Ki-Pro mini:

Hyperdeck Shuttle:
- Seem to be persistent and complex problems getting these files to work - HAVE THESE BEEN RESOLVED WITH NEW FIRMWARE?
(there is a 22 page thread on DVX user but i can't keep track of it all)
- Are there now ways to get DNxHD files to Pro Res, mov, cineform?
 
Lenilenapi said:
Here' my attempt to summarize the above and info on some other threads. Please add to or correct this information



Hyperdeck Shuttle:
- Seem to be persistent and complex problems getting these files to work - HAVE THESE BEEN RESOLVED WITH NEW FIRMWARE?
(there is a 22 page thread on DVX user but i can't keep track of it all)
- Are there now ways to get DNxHD files to Pro Res, mov, cineform?
Click to expand...

Yes it seems the new beta firmware added an MOV wrapper to the files when recording, I downloaded a raw file and it played back perfectly on my macbook pro.
 
Hyperdeck DNxHD MOVs should work with every NLE- make sure you have AVID codec pack installed:

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=392959

If you want to access 10bit on Windows you have to use Eyeon Fusion, AE, free Resolve Lite, ffmpeg/ffmbc, or directshow filters based on fmpeg. I'm not sure about Premiere, but Vegas, Edius won't keep 10bit and also most other transcoders/converters will read only 8bit in DNxHD. On MAC Resolve will see 10bit- don't know about FCP7,X as I'm not MAC person.

Hyperdeck will record all 16 channels of SDI audio as 24bit PCM if you set it to MOV. I think it records only 2 channels with MXF setting.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Here' my attempt to summarize the above and info on some other threads. Please add to or correct this information

F3 General SDI settings and output ports:
- you need set F3 to 1.5G YPbPr422 & S-Log
-Recorder should be connected to SDI-A. SDI-B can either be a clone of SDI-A or can have applied LUT for de-logged preview of video.
- To have 4:4:4 (or 50/60p at 4:2:2) you need Cinedeck or other recorder with either 3G or dual link support.
- SR-R1 only records up to 30p 4:4:4 from F3 (but it can do 2 streams at 30p 4:4:4, eg for 3D).
Click to expand...


SR-R1 will record up to 60p at 4:2:2- just to clarify, as previous information may be bit confusing (it was regarding 4:4:4).
 
"Samurai:
- Problems with "green clips" have been resolved with latest software - IS THIS 100% CORRECT?"

No, not correct. Im currently filming a doc in Armenia with and without S-log using the SDI-A out, was using my Samurai with the 2.7 firmware and now with 2.8. In both cases, daily I will get a couple green, yellow or grey clips. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the supplied Atomos cable though. I've picked my F3 up off the sticks and watched the Samurai screen go from normal to green screen. My cable routing runs near the handle and when my hand bumps it is when I've witnessed it happen. I'll then jiggle the cable connection and the screen will jump around and eventually come back to normal. While the Samurai's screen may be awful for judging exposure or color, it's great for making sure your footage doesn't look like a neon explosion. Dont get me wrong, I love this thing for it's weight, ease of use, battery life, monitor, etc. but I have no confidence in my recording unless I check every clip in the monitor when I start rolling. If it's as simple as a bad Atomos cable I'll be ecstatic.

FYI -I've been using a Western Digital Scorpio Black 500GB and it's performed flawlessly, even when shooting while walking. The OWC 6G Mercury Extreme Pro SSD I was using was great until it got bricked the other night after the computer went to sleep while downloading. Nothing seems to be able to revive it, even Disk Warrior. Have no idea what happened with that.
 
I'm just trying to keep track of this stuff for my own benefit but encourage people who know more to edit this post or add to it.

F3 General SDI settings and output ports:
- you need set F3 to 1.5G YPbPr422 & S-Log
- Recorder should be connected to SDI-A. SDI-B can either be a clone of SDI-A or can have applied LUT for de-logged preview of video.
- To have 4:4:4 (or 50/60p at 4:2:2) you need Cinedeck or other recorder with either 3G or dual link support.
- you can get 1080/50 or 60p with 3G 422 dual link recording but you need a dual link deck like a cinedeck or SR-R1

Samurai: (SDI only)
- Problems with "green clips" have been resolved with latest software - IS THIS 100% CORRECT?
- Make sure you use approved drives
- initial run of SDI adapter cables may have been faulty so make sure you have good cables as this can produce green pics.

PIX:
I am confused by all persistent problem reports on this thread :
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...ith-ProRes-422

As a result I'm still not convinced the PIX is a reliable solution for 24P , but I'm only reading posts here.It may only be 24PsF issue. CAN ANYONE SUMMARIZE PIX PROBLEMS or SOLUTIONS?

Post from Sound devices in that thread:
"With regards to the Sony PsF output issue, whilst we are looking for the solution, here is a possible workaround:
- In the F3's [Video Set/23.98p Output] menu, set to 1080i59.94 (2-3 pulldown).
- Then on PIX, apply a 2-3 pulldown removal by setting the PIX file resolution/rate to 1080p23.976. This removes the 2-3 cadence in real-time. The resulting recording will be true 1080p23.976."

Ki-Pro: (I haven't seen many posts complaining about either Ki-Pro or Ki-Pro mini problems with sLog but these recorders have been around longer.)

Ki-Pro mini:


Hyperdeck Shuttle 2: (HDMI or SDI)- records uncompressed and Avid 422 DNxHD MXF- Does not record timecode
- Again it looks like there continue to still be unresolved issues here - (there is a 22 page thread on DVX user but i can't keep track of it all)
- Apparently new software will produce .mov files that can be used on a Mac but there are serious gamma problems in using them. You do need to download an Avid codec pack (below)Also i don't see straight answers for dummies like me as to exactly what those files are .
(DNxHD files in an mov wrapper -Does that mean you can use it with Final Cut Pro and transform DNxHD files to Pro Res or cineform? )

From Kolak : Hyperdeck DNxHD MOVs should work with every NLE- make sure you have AVID codec pack installed:
http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/self...p?DocId=392959
For 10bit on Windows you have to use Eyeon Fusion, AE, free Resolve Lite, ffmpeg/ffmbc, or directshow filters based on fmpeg. I'm not sure about Premiere, but Vegas, Edius won't keep 10bit and also most other transcoders/converters will read only 8bit in DNxHD. On MAC Resolve will see 10bit - don't know about FCP7,X as I'm not MAC person. --- (PRO RES IS 10bit)
 
Yet again- ProRes itself is 10bit, but most converters, NLE will read it at 8bit only.
It's same story as for DNxHD- same software can access 10bit data, rest is most likely 8bit.

Fact that some codec is 10bit it's only half of the success, as only some software can access all 10bit data in specific codecs. Please don't assume that if you have ProRes, DNxHD or even v210 means you working in 10bit- it's all more complicated and up to your NLE to read 8 or 10bit from file. Same applies to export- you gave to set your NLE in proper way to keep 10bit on export. Resolve Lite is good tool, which will tell you if your DNxHD or ProRes was exported at 8 or 10bit. It shows it in clip informations. Even so it may be that source was 8bit just exported as 10bit :) Sometimes it's easy to judge as massive banding will show up- sometimes it's not clear at all if some file went through 10bit pipe al the way or at some point it was 8bit. All depends on content.
 
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kolak said:
Yet again- ProRes itself is 10bit, but most converters, NLE will read it at 8bit only.
It's same story as for DNxHD- same software can access 10bit data, rest is most likely 8bit.

Fact that some codec is 10bit it's only half of the success, as only some software can access all 10bit data in specific codecs. Please don't assume that if you have ProRes, DNxHD or even v210 means you working in 10bit- it's all more complicated and up to your NLE to read 8 or 10bit from file. Same applies to export- you gave to set your NLE in proper way to keep 10bit on export. Resolve Lite is good tool, which will tell you if your DNxHD or ProRes was exported at 8 or 10bit. It shows it in clip informations. Even so it may be that source was 8bit just exported as 10bit :) Sometimes it's easy to judge as massive banding will show up- sometimes it's not clear at all if some file went through 10bit pipe al the way or at some point it was 8bit. All depends on content.
Click to expand...

If you are working in avid MC with 10bit ProRes you can trans code the 10 bit ProRes to DNxHD 220 X MXF for 29.97P and 175 X MXF for 23.98P which will give you 10 bit to work with in avid but it must be a bit rate with X in it or yes you will be working in 8bit.
 
Yes- I never said it's not possible, just you need to be careful what tool you use. Many people think that if they use DNxHD or ProRes they keep 10bit precision- it's actually very opposite. I work quite lot with ProRes/DNxHD files and 90% of them were actually 8bit- even if probably 75% of people were thinking they delivered 10bit.

One of the free/fast solutions is ffmbc which can transcode ProRes<->DNxHD keeping 10bit precision. This is useful specially on PC.

You also have to be careful with AVID as as far as I know not all effects/filters are 10bit, so even if you choose 10bit DNxHD target it won't help as you lost 10bit precision already. You simply have to keep eye on it.

This has some info (just not sure how accurate, but sounds to be ok):

http://community.avid.com/forums/p/96816/611805.aspx
 
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Sorry if I made that sound like you were wrong I was only agreeing with what you said it is very confusing, sometimes it is hard to tell what bit-rate you are editing in, in Avid you have to use one of the X variants to trans-code your footage to and you should set your timeline to 10bit and make you are set to 16 bit in Media Creation render media, even then when you are in Avid color correction it still says 8 bit in curves when in-fact it is 10bit.
 
Yes- it's confusing in many NLEs.
Only high-end grading tools have fully workign 16 or 32bit pipes- eg Resolve.
NLEs are more difficult to work with 10bit- can be done just needs big attention.

I just want to say it, so people are more aware :)
 
It say´s it in the little information window on top of the bin, when you click on the clip in the bin.
But Premiere converts everything in the timeline - on the fly - to 32bit floating point anyway - so you don´t have to worry.

Frank
 
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