UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panasonic!

V

veganway

Active member
Ok, people, this is serious.
I'm renewing Brendan's call to all PAL users unhappy with 25p.

I want to write to Panasonic Broadcast Europe and ask for a reasonable and satisfying answer/solution to our problem other than: "just shoot in normal mode" or "apply some antialiasing and gaussian blur filter in post" or "all 25p cameras have this flickering issue, just use your camera like a film camera...bla bla bla...".
We all know the issue comes out even on extremely low pans. It comes out as soon as you move the camera, just like Brendan first said!! We just want to get that nice look we get in F5 mode (ok, let's not talk about F6-thin mode) when the camera is fixed, but what we want is to be able to actually move the camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So please if you want to write to Panasonic, please let me know. My e-mail address is: elvis_80@tin.it

You can directly write to me or write here or, better, both.
Just say you want your name to be in a signature of an e-mail we'll write together. (I'm calling again to Brendan...English is your motherlanguage! Thanks)
We are from all European countries! I'm from Italy, Brendan's from the UK...Then there are people from Indonesia, Spain, France, Germany....and everywhere!


Also, I'm collecting as many links on this whole flickering/doubling lines in 25p as possible. This way we'll be able to give Panasonic some extra material to read or at least think about. If you have links to other threads on these or other forums, please post them here. Thanks.

From DVXusers.com:

Calling all PAL users.
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Events;action=display;num=1075308785;start=11

Smooth motion!!??
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Events;action=display;num=1073579563;start=15

Flickering pans
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Events;action=display;num=1072185291;start=4

DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Events;action=display;num=1077122851;start=0


From French Forums du Repaire:

Le mode progressif, la galere!!! (Progressive mode: jail!)
http://www.repaire.net/forums/showthread.php?s=257b166a973d376bbea2a4066f79cda3&threadid=46936


From 2-Pop forums:

25p Buzz on PAL monitor
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbth...Forum=All_Forums&Words=dvx100AE&Match=Entire%

20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1week&Main=17542&Search=true

Problem with 25p mode in PAL model?
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbth...orum=f8&Words=25p&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=
20475&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post20475

From Cinematography.com forums:

dvx 100 24p 25p, samthing i dont understand
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=98


From Creativecow.com:

Major Strobing Issues DVX100E vs. HD in 25p mode
http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=122


I'm sure there are many more I'm missing right now, but I gotta go. Please let me know. Thanks.

Cris
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Hi Vaganway

What I understand, the stobbing effect is an issue related to the PROGESSIVE mode in general, and not something particular to 25P (or 24P, and 30P for that matter.) At least this is what one gathers after reading the article indicated by PrestonH at  http://videosystems.com/ar/video_highrate_progressive/index.htm  

I think video cameras are 'just cameras' and not  'HUMAN EYES', which are the PERFACT CAMERAS. You have to expect some (at least some) limitations in every technology, no matter how perfact. In this very particular issue this seems to be true all the more because  

1. the Progressive/HD technologies are still evolving and

2. we are talking about getting perfact results, using still-evolving technlogies, and by intermixing them while assessing the results.

As for me, I do have a strobbing effect in 25P mode. This is not very pronounced either. On slow pans it is almsot non exitent. However, I believe in what IAL said at overcoming the effects by PROPERLY USING the camera  (instead of getting nervous about its percieved technological defect.)  

But yes I agree an indiviudal's tolerance of  'A' particular issue (for instance I would not call it even a problem...the strobbing thing) can and should vary. However I think that a professional approach is to accept the limitations of any given situation (or equipment, or even onself) and OVERCOME them by adjusting to the situation. At least this is what I have learnt so far in my profession.

I also wonder why no other Professional ever pointed to this issue (which you are sure is a problem) in the past. After all AGDVX100 ( not the DVX100A) did not become one of the most favoured cameras of Profs overnight. I am sure many people took some remarkable results from the PAL version too.  

Sorry for this longish 'opinion'. I have no intention of affecting urs or anyone else's opinion by this post. As I already said this is just what I really feel inside me. I know in ur posts so far u have also been doing just the same  

But off course I dont think there is a point in sending a joint representation to Panasonic....
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Hi Cris,
Sorry Ive not responded sooner. Ive been away shooting {in interlaced mode I might add cause this strobing issue is still killing me!}
Anyway Im still unhappy :'( so count me in on the panny letter.

Good luck
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Best of luck with this thing--I know there have been a lot of unhappy PAL users out there & hopefully if you can get enough people to complain, you might actually get an acceptable response.

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here and ask: what is the camera NOT doing that the manual said it would. And be sure to answer this by what PANASONIC said it can do & not by what people on this site or other DVX sites claim. I think the main reason a lot of these problems come about is because people on these forums are so excited about this camera that they talk it up to a saint-like status & give people a misrepresentation of what it's really capable of. My finding are based on my useage of the NTSC DVX, but here's a few things I've learned--

1) THE DVX ISN'T FILM--35mm, 16mm, Super8 or otherwise. If you want it to look like film, shoot film. The DVX is just a video camera that creates video that doesn't look like other video--make sense? The "film look" comes from the more film like gamma curve and the strobing effect of the progressive scan that makes NTSC users think of bad telecine jobs & thus equate it with film. But as was brought up on one of your links above, PAL video doesn't need to undergo the same telecine process as NTSC, so you're probably not used to seeing 16mm with the bad telecine stutters.

2) THE CAMERA DOES STROBE AND FLICKER--but it is controlable. it would be nice that it didn't happen at all, but it's a $3,000 camera shooting on $5.00 tapes; you can't have everything. Like it's been said a thousand times before, shoot video with this camera as if you were shooting film. Always use a tripod with a FLUID VIDEO HEAD and light it as if you were lighting a film set. I only say this because every time i see people complaining about strobe, the video clip they send is either under a single 60-watt lightbulb, or they're shooting on a jittery still-photo tripod.

And flicker will exist, strongly, if you're shooting in thin mode. it's supposed to--it's not made for being played back on a video monitor. Always shoot in thick unless it's a film out.

So again, only playing the devil's advocate here, because I'd hate to have you go through all of the trouble of going to panasonic and having them tell you "hey, that's what the camera looks like". i know it's been mentioned before, but has anyone tried shooting on another DVX PAL camera other that your own and comparing the results? I know there are thousands of professionals using these cameras all over Europe--maybe you just have a few bad cameras. But if the footage looks the same on a camera that someone is using for professional shoots, your expectations may just be too high.

If you're fully convinced that there is something mechanically wrong with your cameras, definitely let panasonic hear about it, and be loud. there is no reason to have to work with a piece of junk. but just be sure that you're not already shooting exactly what the camera is supposed to be capable of--slightly jumpy progressive scan video, nothing more, nothing less.
2)
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

hi vegan and everyone, i'm with you as to write to Panasonic but before we have to understand the problem.
I'm testing but there'snt any sign of the defects in the frames (i've never seen "broken lines" this one are surely pal artifacts-they are present also in the Addams Family seen on TV)
But the strobes?
In my last post in "DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)! " thread i've published an image that seem to show that there was a clone image in the pans and i've supposed some "problem" with the frame sampling frequence (as if two images was splitted togheter in the same frame)
I've tried with different condition and shutter speeds (all DVX100E 25p):
(500W at 2 Mt from a white chair at 1 mt from the camera pans right to left)
1/25
60124038.jpg

1/50
60124123.jpg

1/1000
60124205.jpg


Natural daylight with clouds from the windows:
1/50
60124346.jpg

1/1000
60124418.jpg


Outdoor 16.00 pm some clouds:
1/50
60131848.jpg

1/1000
60131232.jpg


...so this isn't the cause of the strobing... :-X
but it's strobes
and it strobes also on my monitor and not only on a pal TV!
??? ??? ??? :'(
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

mauro, how far away from the bucket where you when you shot this and did you hold the camera the same height for each shot?
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

i was at 2 mt + zoom10 from the bucket and i've perfomed triyng to move the camera every at the same speed.
i've tried also with distantant subject but the results was always the same...
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

im beginning to wonder if all this pal strobe/flicker stuff has to do with the refresh rate of the lighting in the pal countries or somthing like that, cause all the good non strobing stuuf ive seeen hass been outside (like shais trailer and such) and the stroby stuff has been inside and done pretty much with just practicals. hmm. anyone have any insight on this and care to perhaps look into it further.. or call it stupid, and mark it off as a dead end. either way.. just a though i was having... could all come down to whos running the cam too.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Mauro:

I still haven't tried 1/1000 myself, but the frame at this shutter speed you posted look fine to me, don't they? :o

"...so this isn't the cause of the strobing..."

??? I'm a little lost...sorry!

"and it strobes also on my monitor and not only on a pal TV!"

The footage on a PC look better to me, but yes, there's definitely something wrong...no "doubling lines", but strobing.

IAL:

Shai's first video was shot outdoors. But 5 nach 6 was shoot indoor and it had pans in it.... :-/
Anyways...you're talking about "the good stuff"...but how can you be sure these videos that look fine on your PC are not flickering on a PAL tv if you don't have the chance to try one?... :-/ Ok, guess there's the authors' word, anyways...

Gotta go now, but I'll be back asap again on this issue.

Cris
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

i believe shai also uses a pro lighting setup.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

this is one possibility, I'm Italian 230v 50Hz .It's the same in all the european countries: why the differences between users?
Moreover i've tested all the different frequences on my pc monitor but the strobes are always the same.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

the refresh rate of your monitor wouldnt correct an issue that was apparent during recording , but again i think shai uses a pro setup, which mnay have a different refresh rate than the standard practicals.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

shot in the dark.. but slow shutter.. dark.. handheld... wiggle wiggle?
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

?? . im lost.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

"the refresh rate of your monitor wouldnt correct an issue that was apparent during recording , but again i think shai uses a pro setup, which mnay have a different refresh rate than the standard practicals."

He surely does. But then again, I tried a 650W light setup (I only have this "bulb" on my only pro light right now... :-/)...Maybe it's still poor. And now that I think of it, practicals where on, too (it was another "on the fly" test)...
Anyways, I still can't see why the flicker should be there in outdoors... :'(

Cris
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

if its there in the same amount outdoors(and is not just mishandling), then this really isnt the issue, and falls in the stupid, and dead end pile.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

"if its there in the same amount outdoors(and is not just mishandling), then this really isnt the issue, and falls in the stupid, and dead end pile."

I'll make some other tests on my tripod and let you know.

Thanks.

Cris
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Well, the 1/1000th shots verify my hypothesis: the "double image" you're seeing is simply motion blur. It's exactly what's supposed to happen. With the super-short shutter speed, there's no blur, hence no double image. It is absolutely not a sign of a defect in your camera or in Panasonic's processing of the image.

In the slower shutter shots, the picture is being photographed while the camera is moving. So there's blur. Try the same pan, the same move, the same subject, the same lighting, etc. with a 35mm still camera, set the shutter to 1/30th or whatever, and you'll get an image that looks the same.

What you're seeing, in that "double image", is that the white areas of the chair are being "ghosted" by the background, when the camera moves. You're seeing sections of the picture where both the background and the chair where photographed in the same space. The thick white sections are where there was chair and chair in the same section, and the fainter images are where there was chair and background.

I can't say whether there's a problem with the PAL camera or not, I haven't seen PAL footage on a PAL monitor. But I can say that those pictures you showed are absolutely normal, there's nothing wrong with them, and there is no problem being illustrated by them. That is exactly how the camera is supposed to work.
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

I agree with Barry on those stills, there’s nothing wrong with them. The double image in this case is due to the longer exposure. When I export stills or view footage on my NL editor’s Progressive monitor, everything looks ok.

The double image I’ve been talking about appears on the PAL monitor during cam movement and looks like the A fields from 1 frame and the B fields from the next frame are being displayed at the same time. My ‘test’ demonstrates this where vertical and diagonal lines break up during a pan because the A and B field pixels which should represent the diagonal line become misaligned during a pan making this smooth diagonal line look like a flight of steps. All pixels displaying vertical and horizontal edges within a frame {be it a door, a building, the back of a chair etc} become misaligned as the camera pans which means that this sharp edge is lost and certainly any fine detail like wood grain on the door simply disappears. We see the edge of a door from frame 1 in the A field and the edge of the door from frame 2 in the B field, and if there is ANY cam movement between frame 1 & 2 the image looks doubled because the A & B pixels displaying the same vertical line are in physically different positions on the pal monitor. As if the doubled imagery and the loss of fine detail weren’t degrading the PAL picture enough this affect also seems to double up the natural flicker of this progressive medium!! It has been said that if you leave the cam static that all is ok, I would disagree by saying that this affect is LESS NOTICABLE when something is moving in a static frame as apposed to the whole frame moving, but the edges of the moving subject are still broken.

Is this making sense? This is purely my speculation from what I’m seeing and from what other people tell me there seeing.
If I were thinking along the right lines, the row arrangement of A B pixels would suggest that during a tilt this problem should be less noticeable which I am also finding.

What do you think?
 
Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Re: UNHAPPY *25p PAL* users: LET'S WRITE to Panaso

Brendan
Yes right -I always thought that most of time we talked about two different pair of shoes.
I have  a nice chance -
I can see the footage with activated deinterlacer chip in a progressive display and without. With activated deinterlaced chip the display reacts like my normal PAL YUV monitor and in the same way you discribe.
simply the same phenomena....
if you look at it progressive activated on a big screen all the halos become small strobes and jidder lines - its not so pronounced on a small 17 "TFT  - so to be fair to this camera
I did a lot of research in judder deriving from the different refresh rates
of 60 Hz TFTs in PAL countries and 50 Hz PAL footage .
But normally this only results in tearing and juddering pans not in strobes. keep you informed
 
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