understanding benefits of 1080 60p or 720 60p.

J

jaydigges

Active member
Can someone help me understand this? I get that 24p and 30p have different looks. And I also understand that shooting 60p and slowing down to 30p or even 24p gives great looking, and natural slow motion. Provided the user is capable.


Does 60p give more options for editing? does it give a specific hyper real look? does it require more pixals and therefore sucks for streaming? its amazing how little I know about it.


This post is here because: I will buy either the new consumer tm700 or a used HMC40 in the very near future. This camera will be used for traveling through africa alongside my Canon 7D. I don't need XLR inputs since I will bring the Zoom H4n and pro sound gear. I need the camera to be under $2000. The TM700 is the first camcorder ever to have 1080 60p... Is that right?
 
jaydigges said:
The TM700 is the first camcorder ever to have 1080 60p... Is that right?
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No. Sanyo has had two consumer cameras (VPC-FH1 and VPC-HD2000) available for over a year - both offer 1080/60p. I have the FH1 (available for about $400) and its pretty good with decent manual control for a consumer camera. Both cameras suffer from really bad image stabilization.

I only use(d) 1080/60p when I wanted 1080/24p slo-mo. Since I have purchased the HMC40, I don't use the FH1 at all and just use the HMC40's 720/60p when I want some slo-mo.
 
Keep in mind that you have limited delivery options for 60P. BluRay supports 1080i and 720p, but not 1080P.

However, a powerful computer will play it OK, and you can play 60P files from your camera or from some MediaTank-like devices like this: http://www.egreathd.com/
 
If you want to do variable-frame-rate stuff, slowing down or speeding up your footage, you're always better off to start with more frames, so yes 720/60p would be better for that. (or 1080/60p).

Does anybody stream 60p on the web? If so, and that's what you want, then of course it'd be better to start with 60p, yes.
 
I have been looking for an answer to this as well and can't find it. I have seen 6op streams on a private web site, but youtube and vimeo always slow the frame rate to 30p or slower. Are there any sites that will keep your 60p file at 60p for streaming a live look?

BTW... i think 60p conformed to 24p looks awful. Everyone does it, but I don't think it looks anything like shooting in 1080 24p.

And blu-ray DOES support 1080 24p, just not 1080 60p... yet... I'm sure with a firmware upgrade.
 
Blackout said:
IAnd blu-ray DOES support 1080 24p, just not 1080 60p... yet... I'm sure with a firmware upgrade.
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No-one said it didn't support 1080P24 .. of course it does! Meanwhile, 1080P60 is not part of the Blu-ray spec so it's not really a firmware issue, although I suppose we might start seeing out-of-spec standalone players if the demand is there.
 
Graham, you said blu-ray does not support 1080p in your first post. Anyway just a clarification issue I now get what you meant.

Still - does anyone know of an online site that will stream 60p? I make certain 60p mpeg4s that I would like to retain that fast live look, bit vimeo and youtube throw out half the frames always.
 
Hmmmm, OK, maybe my sentence construction was ambiguous.

Quote: "Keep in mind that you have limited delivery options for 60P. BluRay supports 1080i and 720p, but not 1080P."

For 60P!
 
1080p 60p does have the one advantage of being perfect to either deliver 1080i 60i or 720p 60p. Both formats can be had with a near perfect quality conversion. So while Bluray itself may not support 1080p 60p you do have two choices. Full resolution but interlaced or slightly lower resolution but progressive.

So you have the advantage of shooting 60p for stills and better quality rendering and so forth but then deliver normal 60i. Not very different then just shooting 60i from the beginning except for maybe longer render times.
 
Thomas Smet said:
1080p 60p does have the one advantage of being perfect to either deliver 1080i 60i or 720p 60p. Both formats can be had with a near perfect quality conversion. So while Bluray itself may not support 1080p 60p you do have two choices. Full resolution but interlaced or slightly lower resolution but progressive.
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And some other things... you can get perfect 1080/60i for Blu-Ray and 720/30p for online from the same original video. And of course, slowing down 60i to 30p or 24p gives you a usable slo-mo for some purposes. I do mean slowing down, not frame rate conversion, which is find for 30p, but needs interpolation for 24p, so it's very CPU intensive to do at all well. Some years back, I did a fairly decent NTSC->PAL conversion in Vegas, using the supersampling function. Converting a 2-hour SD video took 9 days on my fastest PC (ok, back then it was like a 1GHz Athlon, but still).
 
60i or 60P looks unreal; too smooth; the human eye sees at mid-2-FPS at best, thats why 30P/F and 24P/F are so much more appealing, and why 60i/P are so much more 'consumerish/low budget keyed.
 
Zissou said:
60i or 60P looks unreal; too smooth; the human eye sees at mid-2-FPS at best, thats why 30P/F and 24P/F are so much more appealing, and why 60i/P are so much more 'consumerish/low budget keyed.
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Totally untrue. The human eye is perfectly capable of seeing 60p video in full motion clarity. Any experienced viewer can easily tell between 24p and 60p.

There's some artistic favor for 24p, but only because that's the film standard, and you're used to it. It's like tube amps and tape compression on music... you like it because it was a fact of life in the past, but not terribly relevant today. Digital video projectors in theatres today still handle 24fps material, but they typically shutter it at 144fps. That's why it was a pretty easy conversion for basic theatrical 3D... you still get 72fps per eye from a single DLP projector.

Even the whole DLP technology exposed, surprisingly, just how fast the human eye can be. People complained in the early days about seeing "rainbow" images. That's because they "only" refreshed the display at 8000 updates per second (a DLP time-multiplexes 3 to 6 full-frame colors from the same chip, so it has to flash each screen really fast). They went to 16,000 or so, and folks stopped seeing the rainbows.

The ATSC television standard incorporated 720/60p largely because it was strongly proven better for many sports. Ok, sure, it helped that ESPN wanted it, that ESPN was owned by ABC television, and ABC television was owned by Disney. No one says "no" to the Disney empire.

Pundits are always underestimating the human sensory capacity. We're faster and more sensitive than most people think. Good musicians can detect changes on the order of 1ms. R/C drivers see day and night difference when you reduce their control latency from 20ms to 5ms or so (I designed hardware that did this... see "Nomadio Sensor" and "Nomadio React" if you're curious).
 
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