UGH Rode NTG-2 + Tascam DR-100 = quiet. Need preamp help!

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dantakesphotos

Active member
Hello friends, I've been searching the forum for hours and I have a few questions about building a small setup for an indie film. I recently purchased (within 30 days so returns are an option) a Rode NTG-2 and a Tascam DR-100 recorder. The only problem, as many folks have said, is that the levels are very, very low coming into the recorder out of the mic, even with the DR-100's gain set to High.

Now I know that adding a Sound Devices MP-1 preamp would solve the problem (right?) between the mic and recorder, but is there a way I can shuffle the gear around to get a better bang for my buck? What I'm trying to say is that adding $350 for the pre is going to be tricky in my situation.

How would a setup like this work:

Rode NTG-2 > MP-1 via XLR > Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-05 via XLR to 1/8" mini phone

How much of a difference (in pure sound, not function) would the cheaper recorder make over the DR-100? In theory I would pump the clean signal from the MP-1 into the Tascan DR-05 and it would work nicely? Is there a major disadvantage to using a XLR to 1/8" cable?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Again, I know that keeping the DR-100 and geting the MP-1 would be the best best, but is it the only option? I am also willing to swap recorders for something with a hotter pre for the mic...
 
Why not Rode VideoMic Pro?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/744768-REG/Rode_VIDEOMIC_PRO_VideoMic_Pro_Compact_Shotgun.html

That will kill your current question(s)...

Honestly, I have no idea why you can't get NTG-2 work with DR-100. The recorder provides up to about 60db gain for the preamp. I thought that it was its (only) major advantage over the similarly priced Zoom H4n. If what you wrote were true, then NTG-2 wouldn't work well with Tascam DR-680 either, which I strongly doubt (well, that said, you might still be right). I bought NTG-2 + H4n, and after testing, returned both for NTG-3 + DR-680, which to me is a perfect combo that works so beautifully. If you don't put more $ into all this, I don't think your best bet is to add a single-channel field mixer. It has to be the new VideoMic Pro. Give it a shot, at least....

Hope this helps.
 
Im trying to avoid the mini-cord out of the VMP and it's tiny frail cable. Maybe I'm just being picky with the gain set high on the DR-100.
 
The low level issue with the NTG-2 and H4n is well documented, though I'm not sure I've heard of the same issue with the DR100 before. Basically, the NTG-2 doesn't have as hot an output as, say, the NTG-3 and it needs a stronger pre-amp to drive it.

An MP-1 would help, though if you're going that route I'd recommend the MM-1 instead. It's a little more expensive, but has headphone monitoring which is crucial for an added gain stage. It also has a monitor return input so you can monitor both pre-amp and recorder from the same place (or if working as a boom op in a larger system, you'll get monitor return with talkback from the mixer).

Adding the pre-amp but dropping to a non-XLR recorder may be a bit counterproductive. Sure, it'll work (with the proper adapter cable), but it's going to be a pain and you're still going to be sending the signal through pre-amps on the recorder... pre-amps that aren't as good as what the DR100 has.

Last, the VideoMic Pro is probably the last option. The mic element may be on the same quality level with the NTG-2, but having only a hard-wired cable that is unbalanced means that longer cable runs will add noise. It's not a big deal for running a few inches to a camera, but can be a real problem if trying to run from a boom pole to a recorder.

Your best solution, however, is probably to invest in a better recorder. For the money you spent on the DR100, plus what you'd spend on the MM-1, you could get a Fostex FR-2LE. For just a little more, you can get a Tascam HD-P2 or DR680. Any of those recorders will outperform the DR100, and have much better form factors that are bag- and cart-friendly.
 
I'll give you another take on the situation you find yourself in. I started as a location sound recordist with a Sennheiser ME-80/K3 and and a DR-100. The ME-80/K3 has less output than the NTG-2. I had to run my gains on the DR-100 at High, and have the gain wheel turn nearly to 100% to maintain dialog levels of -20 with peaks around -12. This resulted in my learning how to boom the snot out of the talent. Getting the mic close, and in the most appropriate position for the best gain. My next step was purchasing a used PSC Alphamix. This gave me lots and lots of clean gain, plus an assortment of routing options not available without a quality mixer. In the last 5 months, I've upgraded my recorder to the DR-680. While the 680 is a very capable recorder, I am spoiled by having a mixer in front of it. Since the Alphamix provided pre-fader direct out, I'm able to record ISO tracks very cleanly, and also record a two channel mix track. At the same time I can send a feed to up to two cameras, as well as drive a comtek transmitter for wireless director/scriptie feeds, and very quickly and accurately monitor alot about what's happening with the production sound environment.
It really depends on what you're trying to do. I am a sound guy and market myself as a person who can step into a production, and support just about anything the production demands regarding sound. Granted, I do this mostly on an Indie level, but even on an Indie level things can get complicated pretty quickly with regards to production sound.
Here's the takeaway:
If you're balking at the cost and investment in a preamp stage ahead of your DR-100, you may be better served by hiring a competent sound person in your area who has decided to bite the bullet on this types of investment, and is focused on getting every ounce out of this investment.
 
C2V said:
The low level issue with the NTG-2 and H4n is well documented, though I'm not sure I've heard of the same issue with the DR100 before. Basically, the NTG-2 doesn't have as hot an output as, say, the NTG-3 and it needs a stronger pre-amp to drive it.

An MP-1 would help, though if you're going that route I'd recommend the MM-1 instead. It's a little more expensive, but has headphone monitoring which is crucial for an added gain stage. It also has a monitor return input so you can monitor both pre-amp and recorder from the same place (or if working as a boom op in a larger system, you'll get monitor return with talkback from the mixer).

Adding the pre-amp but dropping to a non-XLR recorder may be a bit counterproductive. Sure, it'll work (with the proper adapter cable), but it's going to be a pain and you're still going to be sending the signal through pre-amps on the recorder... pre-amps that aren't as good as what the DR100 has.

Last, the VideoMic Pro is probably the last option. The mic element may be on the same quality level with the NTG-2, but having only a hard-wired cable that is unbalanced means that longer cable runs will add noise. It's not a big deal for running a few inches to a camera, but can be a real problem if trying to run from a boom pole to a recorder.

Your best solution, however, is probably to invest in a better recorder. For the money you spent on the DR100, plus what you'd spend on the MM-1, you could get a Fostex FR-2LE. For just a little more, you can get a Tascam HD-P2 or DR680. Any of those recorders will outperform the DR100, and have much better form factors that are bag- and cart-friendly.
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Excellent advice, thank you. In regards to the Fostex and the other Tascams, do their pre-amps outperform the DR-100? I understand that they are more bag friendly, but I will deal with the bad form factor of the DR-100 if the pres are going to be close. I am not opposed to the Fostex as that could be worked into the budget.
 
The pre-amps in the FR-2LE are very respectable, and I'd venture to say are better than anything you'll find in a $300 hand-held recorder.
 
C2V said:
The pre-amps in the FR-2LE are very respectable, and I'd venture to say are better than anything you'll find in a $300 hand-held recorder.
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Well, I'd hope so. But is the gain going to be that much of a difference? I have been watching shorts made with the NTG-2/D100 combo and after asking about preamps each director said that they are just using the built in pres and cranking it in post. Maybe I just need to learn how to boom closer and a few noise reduction tricks in ProTools
 
"fixing it in post" takes time away from the creative process. I've been down this road many many times on indie projects, and when time and money just aren't there, having to spend all my time fixing things rather than spending more time on sound effects editing and sound design is an overall detriment to the project. When you just "raise the gain" in post, you also increase the noise level, and then that has to be cleaned. You should strive to get the best production audio you can possibly get.
 
The NTG-2 is a better mic than the VideoMic Pro. Same capsule though. And if you are running the NTG-2 on battery you get a bit more noise than if you run it on good phantom. I believe the "High" setting on the DR-100 is normal, and the others are pads, so High is good. You need to get that mic up close even with all the right gear, but a preamp is a must for narrative work, and one with limiters will save your butt. Short of that, there are good JuicedLink preamps out there that provide clean gain. I think 300.00 bones will get you one with phantom. No limiters on any of the JuicedLink stuff. The DR-100 has analog limiters though. I have not heard them so I can't say if they are transparent enough to not hurt your audio. If the single channel Sound Devices thing has a limiter, I'd say go for that. You need what you need, and not having enough money isn't going to make a good solution appear. You must save, or use a credit card. I say make it count! Don't cheap out on a preamp. It's more expensive to shoot a whole film with crap audio and have it go nowhere or have to pay to clean it up, than to spend 665.00 bucks for a MixPre and have sweet, clean audio that has no hiss, and no clipping. Then you will have the preamp for your next film too! If not you will still have crap audio for your next film, and have to clean it up again, but it's never as good as getting it right at the location.
 
Your basic problem is that you have a mic with low sensitivity and a puny recorder with (I'm guessing) quite a bit of impedance on the input pres. The best solution if you really like the mic is to get a mixer/recorder with beefier pres. That Fostex unit C2V mentioned is quite good. Fostex always had some of the best DATs and their new non-tape units are just as good. And yes, the Tascam units are great too. Even Nagra is getting into the tapeless game these days.

If the mic isn't that important to you, look for another with a higher sensitivity rating and keep your recorder. Replacing the mic would be the cheapest route.

Another solution is to get a mixer to go between the mic and the recorder. A Sound Device MP1 isn't too expensive and will give you a healthy pre level going in.
 
As the pretty much proud owner of a DR-100, you may want to consider a few other options. First, though the gain on the DR-100 is not super, I have found it to be enough with phantom powered mics. Dynamic is another story. Though I don't have one, the NTG2 has a universally bad reputation for poor performance into the cheapo recorders without a mixer. I CAN tell you that the NTG3, AT-897, AT4053b, and Oktavas work OK with the DR100. No doubt the DR could use more gain, but it works well enough for dialogue for video. What I am saying is your real problem is the NTG2, so you might want to consider the problem before buying the solution. Without a doubt, a mixer would help you out in a lot of ways, and should be your next step, but a different mic could help you out now without buying a mixer.

Grant
 
Okay, I may as well return the NTG-2 for the AT-897 and save money that way. Anyone else using the AT-897 with the DR-100? Thank you for all of your helpful feedback, it's awesome!
 
Um, I'd search "NTG-2 vs AT897" before you did that. The NTG-2 is the preferred mic by and large. The 897 is an Electret condenser with -41dB sensitivity. The NTG-2 is a true concenser at -36 sensitivity. So you would be getting a less sensitive mic that sounds worse.
 
I wouldn't get the AT897 either.

Also, if you get a better recorder/mixer setup, like that Fostex FR2-LE Unit, you can take it onto a more professional setting without getting snickered at. You might find one used for less than $300. There's an excellent YT vid of a guy showing how it sounds with an NTG-1 mic.

 
The problem with NTG-2 is not its poor quality, sound-wise or not (many seem to think it's slightly better than AT-897). Nor its sensitivity per se, which is -36db (c.f. -30db with NTG-3). To me, the problem is its max output voltage, which is -15dbu (c.f. at least about 8dbu with NTG-3 and most other Rode condenser mics). The > 23dbu difference is huge.

DR-100 (as well as Tascam DR-680) provides up to about 60db gain per channel for mic preamp. SD MixPre provides up to 66db. If DR-100 can't get NTG-2 to reach an audio level comfortable with you, then neither MixPre nor DR-680 nor any other similar mixer/recorder will be much help.

There are no comparable numbers in official specs for Zoom H4n or Fostex FR 2LE, or I just missed them. By my own experience, I knew NTG-2 + H4n => low level => increased noise in post audio. As for Fostex FR 2LE, given that its official specs lacks such information, I doubt it is noticeably better than DR-100/680 (and might even be worse).


You might have to live with the low audio level with NTG-2 for the time being, or switch to another mic. VideoMic Pro is more or less a consumer-grade mic, but it shouldn't be much worse than NTG-2 sound-wise, and it can reduce your spending (NTG-2 + DR-100 => about $580) to merely 40% ($230). Also, it can buy you time to upgrade to a better system. Even with a better system, VMP is probably still usable and useful for various purposes where superior sound is not critical - at least it can just serve as a low cost backup.
 
Where might I find one of these used?
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They pop up on Ebay and Craigslist once in a while, but not too often because they haven't been out that long. Also, check this and other video forums with a sales section.
 
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