Two questions

U

USLatin

Panamaniac
a. I don't have monitors and I don't have money for them... aghhh... would getting something like these M-Audios be a good idea to hold me over or should I put up with my computer speakers? If so, are there better ones in the range?

http://www.midi-store.com/M-Audio-Studiophile-AV30-pair-p-17234.html


b. The Sound devices 702 recorder (is that their cheaper one?) says it has pre-amps... could I sell my MixPre and go to this baby by itself as my next major investment?
I currently own an HVX, MixPre, USB converter for laptop. So on location I go to the camera through the MixPre and for ADR I use the converter through the MixPre to get 24/96.

BONUS QUESTION (how lucky are you guys :D)

c. Is there a way to make the MixPre record two separate mics into one line on separate channels to make the 702 and a MixPre work for 3 mics? I don't think so but I better ask the experts.
 
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a) I think it is a good idea to have something other than computer speakers to tide you over. There is really no substitute for good monitoring though, and you need to spend $1000 for that + work on the room. Do you have to do your own mixing?

b) I think that recorder may be out of your price range if you don't have other essential stuff. What kind of work are you doing?

c)please clarify

d) good luck!
 
a. ok, so it might be a good idea since they are so cheap. The room is ok for acoustics. It has a slanted wood ceiling with beams. It is a big area as it is the loft with open railing instead of walls. There is a couch behind me but not much more.

b. that is future planning. I am starting up a production company. I am not sure how to start making the cash, that is a work in progress. But I want to do what most of us here want to do, drama, comedy, action... film and TV.

c. I thought that maybe there was a way to get the two inputs to come out on one line out but on the left and right channels. I seriously doubt it can do it... I don't see how it would.

d. thanks!
 
Hey, USLatin... I don't think I ever caught your real name... if you want, let us know so we can address you more easily.

Anyway, skip the M-Audio 3-inchers; for a cheap but reasonable solution in the same price range look for the M-Audio 4-inchers - they're sold under a few different product lines, differentiated mainly by the input connectors (RCA vs. TRS 1/4). I picked up a pair called "Stuidiopro 4" on the discount shelf at the Apple Store last year for $99. These have only RCA input, but that works for what I need them for. I use them mainly as a portable speaker set-up when demoing for clients, remote editing sessions, etc. (and for the occasional party)... the sound is workable, especially if you place them near a wall (which increases bass output A LOT). These are also sold as something like "Studiophile 4" or BM4 with balanced connectors, for more money.

If you want to step up a notch, Event TR5 monitors (~$299 a pair new) give great bang-for-the-buck), and have all the connectivity options you need.

The SD recorders have different preamps than the mixers, but SD claims thay're just as good. I haven't had the chance to do a comparison... but I'm certain they're not BAD, coming from SD.

Still not clear what you mean by c) - but you can certainly mix 2 channels on the MixPre down to 1 (say, set both channels to Left), send that signal to one channel of the 702, and have another mic connected to the 702.

Hey, PM me with some more info on your startup production company!
 
Shawn,

a. Well that's $300, not $150... but there isn't much difference from one to the other and the quality might be night and day. I thought those are more of the cheapest real ones but I guess you have a point... better tighten that belt an other notch... huff! that hurt.

b. I saw that one many times before... maybe that's what I should do but would those pre-amps do a good job?

c. Well yes, the 302 is what I've wanted since before I got my MixPre... but thats over 200% the cost... who knows when I'll get/really need it... I still don't have the pair of lavs I want


Ullanta,

I am honored that you ask, but if you plan on coming over to jack my stuff just know that I have a baseball bat with lots of rusted nails that I am not affraid to use, hahaha!

Roberto Lequeux... I feel special now :D
However PLEASE feel free to call me US, Latin, or Robert, Rob, Retard, Roberto... anything really so long as it is different enough from other posters on the given thread for me to know I am the one being addressed... just talking to me is nice enough so no need for further etiquette :)

I need to digest all your monitor suggestions before I comment, but about question C... sorry I haven't been clear enough yet... I am trying, but this should clarify:

c. Is there a way to get the MixPre to take it's Mic Input 1 and send it out on the left channel of Line Output 1 and the Mic Input 2 to be sent out on the right channel of Line Output 1? Or are these channels mono?

If they are then do the Left Center Right switches equate to line output 1, line output 1 and 2, and line output 2?
 
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ok so here are the contenders for the monitors so far (a)

M-Audio Studio Pro 4 ($125)
http://www.shentech.com/us51115.html

M-Audio BX5a ($300)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-BX5a-70-Watt-Active-Studio-Monitors?sku=603707

Event TR5 ($300)
http://www.zzounds.com/item--EVETR5

I really can't consider the $300 ones so the question is if I should consider buying the M-Audio Studio Pro 4's at all or simply wait till I can go to the $300 level.

Ullanta,
About the inputs... I have a modified X-Fi sound card and the Tascam US-122 which I use as my converter for 24/96 at home in the booth. The Tascam has RCA and Midi out as well as phones... but the X-Fi has mini phonos and the weird VGA looking plug... so I am guessing that the RCA out of the Tascam might be the best bet for me. Right?


It is getting late... sorry if I am not on point. But thanks for your replies and info. I'll check back tomorrow!
 
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dont invest in anything that doesnt have tc

the 7xx series preamps are significantly better then mix pre ( transparency wise)
not really big difference for dialog recording , the lo fq cutoff is much better and has better settings ( slop , fq points )
the 7xx series preamps dont have zero amplification so even you mix them you cant really close the preamps ( but with 2 channel s you wouldn't need to do it )


you can mix the mix pre to 1 of the inputs
the biggest problem is monitoring the camera , so you will need some passive
switch from the camera headphone amp .
i sometimes use the 744 as a preamp for small gigs with the camera but then i listen to the camera outs on inputs 3 and 4
 
USLatinContent said:
c. Is there a way to get the MixPre to take it's Mic Input 1 and send it out on the left channel of Line Output 1 and the Mic Input 2 to be sent out on the right channel of Line Output 1? Or are these channels mono?

If they are then do the Left Center Right switches equate to line output 1, line output 1 and 2, and line output 2?
Click to expand...

Not Bert? I never called anyone Bert... except for Ernie's pal...

But yes, the outputs are mono (and 702 inputs) are mono - so any output is either one of the input channels, or an inseperable sum of both input channels. No way to RECORD 3 separate channels on the 702.

As for the monitors... if you're actually producing video now, I think you need SOME kind of vaguely decent monitors at minimum. More important, IMHO, than the 702 or any other recording device if you now are recording via MixPre->decent camera (and doing your own audio post work). Only once you have the ability to monitor properly will you even begin to appreciate the differences between recording devices - that is, your mixing with computer speakers is much more of a potential source of sound problems than the recorder differences...

In short, I'd say, get some decent monitors now, save up for the recorder. The 4 inch M-Audio's are what I'd consider bare minimum, not great, but cheap if you really can't spend more.... that is, a necessary stopgap which you can't avoid. If you have a DVX/HVX, the camera itself occupies that position, so you don't really NEED a stopgap solution; and, sound-quality-wise, the MixPre gets you into much better recording shape than you are in monitoring shape (Oleg would argue some usability/flexibility issues, but it doesn't sound like that's your main concern right now). So if you can, spring for the Event or even better monitors now for the best immediate improvement.
 
HAHAHA as a matter of fact I have been called Bert before, lol!
And thanks for clearing up about the impossibility MixPre/recorder 3 line thing I was hoping for.

Oleg,
The 702 without the TC would be fine for use with an HVX since I can set the camera to the recorder... still hold off for TC? I mean I most likely will always be working with a camera that can set it's TC to a recorder... I think...
Again, I am so far from being able to afford this... but I really appreciate you guys taking the time to explain to me about them.

Ullanta,
Exactly my thought process... I need SOMETHING if I am going to do my post... even if it were the 3' hehehe... but yes the 4' are the only ones I can considering getting NOW.... :(


So I am torn with WAITING! for the Events or the bigger M-Audios... the problem is that if I will have to go with $1000 speakers down the line, then I should go cheap now so as not to lose more money on the trade...? So go with the 4 inch M-Audios?

And other important factor to consider is the possibility of working with someone with good monitors (and most likely way more skills)!

Doing that would allow me to skimp, but how much...?
Would those $150 ones be enough for me to mix a decent project? And then for the better ones that may get someone interested in re-mixing I can try to get someone on-board to "finesse the mess"... or perhaps have someone on-board from the pre-production stage.
 
No, get the $300 set and sell them later to get your money back or.. keep them. I kept my KRK RP5s and I now use them as kick a$$ computer speakers on my SLI gaming rig, now that is an investment! I bet your wife wouldn't like you buying $300 gaming speakers, but using your "old" monitors, that is fine!

Seriously though, there is just a threshold where the quality will be passable and it is not at $150. Would you buy a $150 dollar field mixer? No, you bought the mixpre, and it is not perfect, but it is of good quality. Did you buy a at897 shotgun? no it is worthless, you spent a little more and got the 4073a, something that works great, but is not the most expensive thing you could buy.
 
As a matter of fact I already have kick ass speakers for my non-SLI rig... didn't now you were that serious into gaming! nice.... did you pass that bill though the spousal senate by claiming it will allow faster CC on Magic Bullet or AE? lol...

My problem is that my gaming speakers are just that... Klipsch 5.1s... ($300!) which is in a way better for gaming for the surround help on approaching enemies, but they simply suck for true voice reproduction. I tried EQ'ing the crap out of them and still nothing acceptable comes out of them. (well there is no way of knowing)

Now there is a reason why I got those... please don't laugh at me yet... I was under the impression I'd be able to get $1000 monitors and I thought I should get some 5.1 speakers till then which I could use for an approximation to 5.1 panning while I'd be mixing in stereo in no time.... well the no time turned out to be just that.... NO time. :( lol!

Ok, Sane, I get it... $150 is not enough for you to call acceptable... so... while $150 would be a huge improvement... if $300 is already "acceptable"... then that is a bullet worth biting! When..? I dunno... but I get it. If I am at the "acceptable" level then I can do what I described above about working with a pro mixologist extraordinaire.

I have to think this through... I have a gifted musician brother in law who owns a pair of Events.... and after composing my score for "A Walk in the Dark" he is taking his long term dream of opening up an independent studio/label... He needs $1000 monitors... and a whole lot more to go with his pro tools.

Maaaaybe he is ready to jump up?

:checking ebay:
 
I was lucky enough to get a second 320mb 8800gts for my anniversary! Biosshock is where it's at!

and read monitor reviews, tons and tons of them!!

Have a great day Roberto! (you should add that to your sig).
 
I guess maybe I should... add my name that is. Unless you meant I should add that I have a single GTS 640MB clocked at 600/1000 that will hopefully bring me 50+ fps on Crysis hehe :D
 
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Yes, the sig.

I should have gone with a single card (for larger frame buffer), but SLI just sounded really cool!

Sorry to hijack, we should add a new category for "time wasters"
 
hahaha... no worried, all my threads are fair game for hijacking... I have something like hiper-active low attention span disorder or something, so it woulud be hipocritical to not allow others to do what I often end up doing inadvertently... lol (bit of an exageration)

SLI is cool stuff... and hey you get to have 4 LCDs in XP.... which I don't unless I get an other 8-series! (7 series don't like being in the company of 8 series in XP)
 
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Monitors are one of the biggest "personal preference" items around. If you talk to 10 folks you will probably get 7 opinions. $$$ does not nec. translate to the best choice. The first big factor is the size of your room. Meyers HD-1's are great speakers, but they require room. Even if I could afford them (~~$3,000 each) I couldn't use them because my smallish room is not big enough. A lot of the $$$ speakers are not near field monitors, and some that say they are, are more like mid field monitors. You are probably looking for speakers that are going to be maybe three feet away and that is very near field. So two big plusses happen. First your room tuning is le critical. Your getting so little room in your ears compared to direct sound from the speakers that the room can have flaws and not be a big deal. You do need to eliminate bounce as much as possible but tall bookshelves behind you will do that very effectively (and you get some useful storage space!), you might also need something on the side walls but often the odd accumulation of stuff in the room will do. And Second you need smaller speakers so you can save some money.

For speakers there are two big divisions, powered and unpowered. Unpowered are cheaper but you need to buy an amp so it probably breaks even but you save when you move up.
What you are ideally looking for is a completely flat response. That rules out all home stereo speakers and a lot of home stereo amps (though not nec.) because they are designed to make your music sound "good". Humans seem to like loud and most music sounds "better" with a little goosing so home stereo speakers tend to boost the bass and treble. This is also the worry with home stereo amps. Multi media speakers are generally even worse and they mostly have spent no time/ money in the acoustical design of the speaker. Their money went into looks and advertising.

What you do have are a bunch of very near field monitors made for home music studios and the odd monitoring situation. And some speakers that are out of the popular radar but get some use in the industry.

Roland, Yamaha etc. all make some smaller speakers that are pretty decent, certainly better than multimedia speakers. Event is sort of the poor man's Genelec. The 20/20's are supposed to be very good (from post folks I know who use them). Yorkvile is another company that makes pretty inexpensive speakers that are very good. I've heard mixed reports on the Mackie's. THey are reported by some to be overly bright and hard to listen to for a long time.
And that brings up another point. You are going to be listening for a LONG time to these speakers. If they are harsh or overly bright your ears will get tired and A) they wont be hearing very well and B) you will feel exhausted. This may seem silly but it is very important. THe Yorkvile and Event speakers are known for not being very fatiguing to the ear.

So if $ is a big issue you could get by for awhile with a pair of home studio mini monitors. Remember to take off the grills, makes a BIG difference. Any 1/2 way decent speaker should have removable front grills, if it doesn't, move on.
You won't be able to really "mix" since your space wont be calibrated in any way, but you can rough stuff in and balance it out and get pretty close. What you wont be able do is balance the EQ and such. You will probably try to put in way too much bass because the speakers don't reproduce it so when you hit a system where you have full response it might be VERY bassy or "muddy". You can't really edit or mix on headphones. The only sort of way around that is with a box by Lake Industries that isn't in production any more, though Dolby who bought Lake may come out with something. But it was around $1500 so it's not a money saver.
SIDE NOTE it's the HSM6240 Theatrephone and was made to be able to do surround sub-mixes in edit rooms with headphones. Very cool. 5.1 with headphones.

Other than with the box above headphones are very tiring on the ears and also are way too close to your ears. So everything sounds MUCH wider than it will through speakers and you will obsess over things that you can't hear over the speakers.

Special side note on Yamaha NS-10's. They were very popular for music "radio mix" monitoring and some how got pumped up as an industry "standard", and they were sort of but not for very good reasons. They are quite bright. They were used a lot in cases where the old Aurotones would have been used years before. They are not "good" speakers but they were thought to translate well to the home market (TV, AM Radio). They are not a good choice for post. THey also have some ardent fans so some may well post a rebutal but I think if you do some research you will find that most folks would not want to use them for post.
SK
 
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Guess what.... before I try to get past Noiz2's first paragraph in my slooooow diligent read with hopes to comb for all the knowledge I can gather...

...my brother in law owns the Event TR-5's... I told him I'd probably buy them from him and he said he'd give them to me for $200 plus shipping (pristine condition)...

here are a few pics of my room (pardon my horrible mess, the phone pics and the light but I am running on just a few hours of sleep :D )

As you see the room is huge... our kitchen is open and below us while the first floor is our little living room.
Also the desk is at an angle hoping to minimize the reverberations from the room though I really don't know if that is helping, but if I kept this angle the little TR-5 Events wouldn't be close to the wall for the added bass effect.
On the up-side... the ceiling is slanted and made of wood which I am sure helps a lot. I do have a couch behind me and I can bring some stuff for the other railing.



Are they going to be worthless in this room?

loft_2.jpg


1191287566.jpg


1191287698.jpg
 
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Noiz2,

I got through your post, thank you so much for the time and knowledge shared!

As you see I posted some pics of the room I will be working on. Do you thin the TR-5 Events are decent enough for the investment ($200 for me). I'd love to hear what you think about them as I am most likely going to jump on them if nobody throws a rock at them or at their "compatibility" with my room and "very near positioning".

Also... I was thinking about building a shelf for my little CC CRT and possibly speakers... should they/do they have to, be at my head's height or would above my head be ok? the shelf would be above my LCDs
 
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