Tube Camera Composite out to HDMI Converter to Atomos Ninja, can this be done?

Jade Lane

Jade Lane

Active member
Hi Everyone,

I've just got my cameras ready for an ambitious period project set in the mid eighties.

I'm using Panasonic WV-555's and WV-V3 3x tube cameras that are now working perfectly, I've followed the recommended advice found on the Atomos forum from another Ninja user and purchased a Kramer VP-410 Converter/Scaler to use the composite signal out of the tube cameras, converted then out to HDMI in on the Atomos Ninja.

Here are my findings so far.

The Ninja can only receive the signal at the 1080i setting from the Kramer VP-410, I believe this is correct?

I have an image showing from the tube cameras on the monitor/record function of the Ninja and it can record but the image has a very green tinge to it? its mainly green. I've tried adjusting the settings on the Kramer but is still the same.

I know the Ninja wasn't exactly designed to do the above but any advice as to what I should do would be greatly appreciated, am I doing something wrong?

If there is another device apart from the expensive Aja ki pro that I should be using please let me know.
 
Could the green tint be coming from the camera? Grab an SD monitor and confirm every step of the signal chain.
 
Thanks for the reply,

Camera connected to a monitor and a HDTV via the composite input and the image looks as it should, could do with a slight calibration but all the colours are there unlike the Atomos Ninja which is displaying a green image only, not a green block colour image is there but green.

I've read up on the HDMI 'Handshake' when connecting certain equipment for the first time and breaking the chain and resetting 3/4 times, i've tried this and still a green image.
 
How about an HDMI monitor after the Kramer scaler? If so, it's the scaler, if not it's the Ninja.
 
Signal seems to be ok after the Kramer Scaler, it was recommend as one of the better ones out there. So maybe it the Ninja? or a mixture of the two?

Has anyone done anything like this or similar?

Any advice as to what I would need to capture the signal after the Kramer? would the forthcoming Blackmagic Design Video Assist be an option?
 
Sounds like the Ninja doesn't like the signal from the scaler. Is it outputting the proper resolution and frame rate? How about you convert it to HD-SDI and capture it with an SDI capture device? Maybe capture it with a MiniDV camcorder with analog inputs. That's easily digitized over FireWire.
 
edinc90 said:
Sounds like the Ninja doesn't like the signal from the scaler. Is it outputting the proper resolution and frame rate? How about you convert it to HD-SDI and capture it with an SDI capture device? Maybe capture it with a MiniDV camcorder with analog inputs. That's easily digitized over FireWire.
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I think so, the Kramer manual mentions only a 2 frame delay. I've tried all the settings on the Kramer and only 1080i works with the Ninja which I believe is correct.

Would converting from Composite to HD-SDI then to a Blackmagic Shuffle be better? I've got the Ninja Mk1 which doesn't have HD-SDI inputs.

You think capture over MiniDV then Sharpen/Up-res in software would be better?
 
HD-SDI doesn't have the same handshaking issues that HDMI has. You will technically get higher quality capturing HD-SDI through a scaler, but since the source is SD anyway, there probably won't be a difference.
 
edinc90 said:
HD-SDI doesn't have the same handshaking issues that HDMI has. You will technically get higher quality capturing HD-SDI through a scaler, but since the source is SD anyway, there probably won't be a difference.
Click to expand...

Can you recommend a Composite to HD-SDI converter ?

So getting a Ninja 2 or Blackmagic Shuffle would be better ? Or the forthcoming Blackmagic Design Video Assist ?

 
Blackmagic converter or AJA converter. The Samurai Blade and BM Video Assist both have monitoring capabilities, the BM Shuttle does not. I don't like the BM stuff because it uses DIN1.0/2.3 connectors which are prone to breakage and require adapter cables. The Atomos and AJA recorders (Ki Pro, Ki Pro Mini) have full-size BNC connectors. All of them will record ProRes or DNxHD, except the Ki Pros. They will only do ProRes.
 
edinc90 said:
Blackmagic converter or AJA converter. The Samurai Blade and BM Video Assist both have monitoring capabilities, the BM Shuttle does not. I don't like the BM stuff because it uses DIN1.0/2.3 connectors which are prone to breakage and require adapter cables. The Atomos and AJA recorders (Ki Pro, Ki Pro Mini) have full-size BNC connectors. All of them will record ProRes or DNxHD, except the Ki Pros. They will only do ProRes.
Click to expand...

So the 'Y' from the component is the composite signal right ?
 
Yes. I know the BM converter auto-detects. You need to flip some DIP switches to get the output correct though.
 
Many thanks, I'll get these bits sold and buy the correct SDI/HD-SDI converter and recorder.

Before posting this I've looked everywhere over the internet for examples of a similar process and can't find any, I love the image coming off the tube camera and am quite happy with 4:3 for the project.
 
When you do figure it out post some footage. I'm preping for a project that will use whole range of various camera going all the way to the 60s. So i'm curious what 80s look like.
 
The conversion is going to be an issue, you're sending 4:3 and trying to record 16:9 so you will probably need to put a pillar box crop on it.

One good convertor that you can probably rent is an aja FS-2, the composite to sd-sdi is OK, you never get great conversion like this. You could also pillar box in the fs-2 to record a 720 recorder. We have three of the fs2 in our studio and still use SD resolution, lots of testing with 4:3 and 16:9 SD. The only satisfactory results I really got were when we bought an sdi switcher and could finally get out of analog.

Truth be told, rent a dv recorder and run it into your computer on FireWire. Should be able to rent all kinds of DVCam or DVC pro decks to get this done.
 
Greg_E said:
The conversion is going to be an issue, you're sending 4:3 and trying to record 16:9 so you will probably need to put a pillar box crop on it.

One good convertor that you can probably rent is an aja FS-2, the composite to sd-sdi is OK, you never get great conversion like this. You could also pillar box in the fs-2 to record a 720 recorder. We have three of the fs2 in our studio and still use SD resolution, lots of testing with 4:3 and 16:9 SD. The only satisfactory results I really got were when we bought an sdi switcher and could finally get out of analog.

Truth be told, rent a dv recorder and run it into your computer on FireWire. Should be able to rent all kinds of DVCam or DVC pro decks to get this done.
Click to expand...


Please can you explain in more detail, the Kramer scaler has a setting option in its menu to change the image to 4:3 which showed up as so on the Atomos Ninja. Will another scaler/converter not just give me the image at 16:9 with black borders either side?

What you mention above sounds very expensive and I need everything to be lightweight and on camera as will be shooting on location mainly and not studio based.

Whats your opinion on the good advice edinc90 has given me with the HD-SDI route?
 
You should check out Charles Papert's "Key and Peele Behind the Scenes" thread. They've shot several sketches on JVC tube cameras, and he gives a little insight on that. See posts HERE and HERE. You might ask Charles for a little more info on working with those cameras.
 
We have a bunch of BM convertors, but I have never tried to run composite to SD-SDI or HD-SDI. I've used an Atlona composite to HD-HDMI which looked pretty good compared other upscalers and I think it would put black bars on the sides or stretch if you were using anamorphic SD (which we are).

We do run SD component into the BM convertors to get SD-SDI and they work great for this, I'm not familiar with your specific cameras, but I would guess that you have a 14 or 26 pin output on the back, and you might be able to get RGB off of that connector. If not, you should be able to steal it from test points on the encoder board, full level but only sync on green (typically) or separate sync. Most of my tubes days were spent on Hitachi cameras and some even older Ikegami Plumbicon cameras. I would grab an o-scope and check the test points on the encoder card and build up an adapter to get RGB, the quality will be much better and then you can use the BM convertors to get SD-SDI out.
 
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