trying to get 720 to look good....grrrrr

D

danielisaiah

Active member
This is my first attempt at a few different things:

Using Cinform Neoscene to extract 24p files from 720p/60fps MTS files

Color Correction using the "Bleach Bypass" method

shooting 16:9 but keeping the 2:35 cinemascope aspect ratio in mind.

I'm Not impressed with how Neoscene handled the 24fps pulldown. I'm using a 60 shutter speed (as i'm told that this shutter speed works the best for converting down to 24fps). Am I doing something wrong? I have seen other videos shot on the GH1 using 720p that look great. I guess whats really bothering me is the "jump cadence" that happens during lateral panning. Notice on the last shot of the video this "jumping" is reallt evident.

I'm using Vegas to edit and I have "disable resample" checking on every clip.

Is there a better solution for good looking 24fps where 720p is invloved

Here the vid (shot on a GH1)

 
You're not supposed to click to the "convert to 24p" checkbox with Cineform if your footage was not PF24 (because that doesn't actually convert to 24p, but it removes pulldown, screwing up your frame rate if your footage is not actual PF24). If you shot at 720/60p, then you should keep it as such. Only click that checkbox if you shot in PF24. So if you're seeing 'jumping' on the footage, it's normal with the way you treated it. If you want 24p, then shoot in 24p/PF24, not 60p.
 
There's no pulldown involved in converting 60 fps to 24 fps, so pulldown is not your problem.

What I do see in the footage are camera movements which are too fast for 24 fps, and thus there's an evident strobe. If you're shooting 60 fps with the intent to convert to 24 fps, you still have to handle the camera exactly the way you would if you were shooting 24 fps, which means slow pans, tilts, and slow general camera movement. Else, it may look fine as 60 fps, but once you make the conversion, you'll see the same 24 fps strobe as would have been there had you shot in actul 24 fps.

So, that most likely explains the jumpiness.
 
hmmm....

David - its not like I was making any excesive movements or pans....even the slow ones seem to have "strobe"

Eugenia- so is it even worth running 720 files through Neoscene?

check this guys video out... discounting the slo-mow stuff, he doesnt seem to have the same problems I have...? He does some pretty quick pans without the strobe mess....

 
>There's no pulldown involved in converting 60 fps to 24 fps

As far as I know, Cineform's utility removes pulldown when its "convert to 24p" option is checked. And if the footage is not PF24, it possibly still forces frame removal. I'd be surprise if it didn't.

> Eugenia- so is it even worth running 720 files through Neoscene?

Yes, but only to get a faster playback inside Vegas, not to convert to 24p.

>discounting the slo-mow stuff,

Actually, slow-mo is important to make something look smooth, e.g. when you slow-mo exactly from 60p to 24p. I use that trick for my music videos too.
 
danielisaiah said:
hmmm....

David - its not like I was making any excesive movements or pans....even the slow ones seem to have "strobe"
Click to expand...

The movement has to be slooooooooooow to avoid the strobing. Slower than you think, and slower than most people used to 60 fps shooting find comfortable. And it has be even slower the more you're zoomed in, to the point where even a simple 90-degree pan should take a minute and a half.

This has been true as long as people have been shooting 24 fps, whether on video or on film.

check this guys video out... discounting the slo-mow stuff, he doesnt seem to have the same problems I have...? He does some pretty quick pans without the strobe mess....
Click to expand...

There's a LOT of nasty strobing in there -- but you may not notice it because a good bit of it follows a particular person or object which stays relatively stationary in the shot while the rest of the picture strobes, and you're paying attention to the "stationary" object, not the strobe. This is actually a way cinematographers shooting 24 fps minimize the apparent problem. The strobe is indeed there, but you're less likely to notice.
 
Eugenia Loli-Queru said:
>There's no pulldown involved in converting 60 fps to 24 fps

As far as I know, Cineform's utility removes pulldown when its "convert to 24p" option is checked. And if the footage is not PF24, it possibly still forces frame removal. I'd be surprise if it didn't.
Click to expand...

I agree with that. I'm just saying there's no pulldown in the Vimeo footage.
 
Partly contributing to the choppy playback are duplicated frames, and your video on vimeo is 30fps. Even if you had "perfect" shooting technique, dupped frames will get you that choppiness on playback.

So there were some problems in the workflow, either on your part, or vimeo messing it up.
 
Where does it say it's 30 fps?

If true, though, that's another, pretty big, problem. If you convert 60p to 24p, 24p makes a lousy conversion to 30p whether you shot it as 24p originally, or if you made it out of 60p. You'll always see bad motion artifacts, such as strobing.
 
David Jimerson said:
Where does it say it's 30 fps?

If true, though, that's another, pretty big, problem. If you convert 60p to 24p, 24p makes a lousy conversion to 30p whether you shot it as 24p originally, or if you made it out of 60p. You'll always see bad motion artifacts, such as strobing.
Click to expand...

You can check the actual video, eg. use firefox download helper (http progressive download flash videos , such as those used on vimeo, are actually kept in your browser's temp internet directory)

For Daniel - I would double check your vegas settings, and the export, verify that everything is in order. If it is, then it's very possible that vimeo is doing something bizarre
 
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