Trust these HMIs? And where to buy?

D

DDirector

Veteran
I'm really looking around to expand my lighting as I don't have much.
I've been looking into Source 4's, but im still not 100% sure if that what i'd want at the moment.
I've never used them before, so I'd have to adapt to using them more often.

I'm also looking at HMI's.
Would like to have the Arrisun 12 Plus, but it being way too expensive, its not for me.

Ive been on the look out for 1200w or 1800w HMIs within that $1-2000 rage at the most. Even at $1500 its pushing it as I cant afford that much right now.
$1 per watt is good, if i can get that.

Problem is, all im finding on ebay are knockoffs that I dont know if I trust and they are all fresnels and magnetic ballasts.
I want a par, I dont want a fresnel unless its my last resort!
The other thing is, if I do end up finding a Par, its usually a a 575w or less or up to a 2.5K or a 4K HMI Par. Thats great, but I doubt I'll be using one like that anytime soon as I dont use gennys.
Would it be safe to use a lower wattage bulb (1.2K or 1.8K) instead of the 2.5K/4K? Or is that just totally stupid?

1) http://www.ebay.com/itm/HMI-Fresnel...356?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c312ac71c
It is a fresnel. Which is a big con. It is a magnetic ballast too. But its $1200.
But, that cable seems really thin. Not sure if its trustworthy.

2) http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2K-HMI-Par-LTM-/290885109667?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ba1a87a3
It is too much for me, but Im just wondering on the actual kit. Trustworthy if I find this cheaper somewhere?

3) http://www.ebay.com/itm/PRO-1200W-6...097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337cb77999
This may be the best unit as it seems most trustworthy, but once again its too much. If I can get this cheaper, that would be the best!
Are no lenses required?

4) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-575...304?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337bf7acd8
This 575w HMI, would this par design be as bright as a 1.2K Par or not? I know the M18 has a great reflector making it brighter than needed and no lenses required. Would that be the same for this?


Which can be trusted?
Where can I buy them?
 
Do NOT buy any Chines HMIs. Although i don't have any experiences with them a few of my friends do. A friend works all the time on super low budgeters and even he makes fun of those lights.
I don't particularly care to go deeper into it but i hear more than one anecdote of how crummy those lights are.

Used lights are great bargain BUT you need to understand that would will have your share of maintenance to perform before you get it to working order. Still you can get great deals. Desisti are are cheapes. LTMs are 2nd. Arris and K5600s are expensive.

Also check out this write up:
http://patrykrebisz.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/hmis-buyers-guide-used-and-new/
 
You have to ask yourself, is this really a worthy investment? Will spending thousands of $$$ on an HMI really increase your earning power, or your ability as a DP? Things might work differently where you're from but I can't really recommend building a personal kit that consists of traditional lighting instruments that are widely available from rental houses as a way to get into the business. Save your money, get creative and build some gag lights that you can't find easily if you want your own gear. As a DP, people hire you for your eye, not necessarily for the gear you bring on. Even as an electrician, I'm rarely asked to bring anything to a shoot other than what I'm expected to bring so I can do my job (tools), even though people I work with know I have a whole bunch of gear that I can offer. Occasionally I'll get a job for which it can pay off, I've probably recouped the cost of most of my tungsten lights by now, but a good HMI will take a LONG time to pay for itself unless you really know your way around the business. That's why I've stayed away from them.

If you really insist, look for something used. Call up Pyramid Films or Visual Products and see what they have, if you buy from them you'll have something genuine and that is much less likely to break. Some of the units you posted doesn't even come with a lens kit, which is required for a PAR unless you only want it to look like an insanely bright pinspot or maglite.

And no, I don't believe you cannot lamp down HMI's outside of what the unit is called if it's a dual wattage unit. Even if you could, which I've never seen done, it would be totally stupid as you put it.
 
I've got the photolight fresnels (their 'JieTu' brand, not the cheaper 'As Arri' ones which even the seller bags when you talk to them) and they work just fine. I'm told it's an Arri copy to the point the parts are interchangeable. The construction is a little sloppy, the parts don't mate exactly but they are solid, use acceptable cabling (the JieTu, still worth checking if you know what you're doing or spend $10 to get an electrician to do it for you), don't leak light and perform well. Stands won't survive regular travel but perfectly okay for studio if you don't knock them over. I've just got some cheap biax fluros from them too although haven't used them in anger yet. The chassis and barndoors seems solid enough (again the construction is slightly off) but all the fittings, sockets and switches are seriously flimsy. Think I'll be replacing those parts before long.

I haven't used their HMIs. I looked at them after being happy with the JieTu fresnels but when I researched them I heard only bad things about them. Nothing good. At all. I'm sure the build quality of the chassis would be the same as my fresnels but the important ballast is said to be noisy and unreliable, patchy when it works and fails within months. I'd steer clear.
 
Another option to consider are the Coollights HMIs, their build-quality is commensurate with their price (relative to Arri gear, for example), but their service and support is SUPERB. Which would give me more confidence in investing thousands in Chinese HMIs.
 
Don't get caught up in the "If I buy it they will come" mentality.

Instead purchase bread and butter items that will be used all the time and earn their keep.

Having a Source 4 with multiple lenses and a full pattern set is great, if it gets used all the time. But, maybe your $1K budget would be better spent on items which will bring higher production value to every shoot, rather than a single shoot.

How are you setup with C-stands, flags, and everyday grip gear, which can be supplemented with specialty rentals?
 
The smart way to do this is look at the lighting items you order the most for your jobs and how much you would have made if you had rented those back to the production. And how many jobs it would take to pay them off. And if you can rent to other people, etc. It's a business decision and should be treated as such, unless you have disposable income to burn.

There is a paradigm to owning more gear, which is that you sometimes end up shlepping that much more stuff around and often not making a single dime on it. I have a garage full of stuff, a lot of which makes a healthy rental inventory but every now and then I go through it and unload items that just take up space and aren't earning.

If this is a hobby, then it's a hobby. If it's a business, it's a business. Buy what you need, not what seems cool.

I don't own either HMI's or Source 4's but I'd probably buy a Source 4 first as I include them on virtually every lighting package I order.
 
The gigs I get are often small budget and often rely on my to provide all the gear.
Were not talking about several thousand dollar gigs for a days work.

I've use HMI's all the time whenever I have the chance to rent out gear.
This is usually when there is a big budget to rent gear. But, when there isnt a big enough budget to rent gear, Id have to provide my own.
Thus, Id like to own HMI's as I do use them often and would be beneficial to me.

Its very slow now but slowly picking up business. I'm working part time while I hope to find more gigs.
So far I don't have a lot saved up.

Ive never been interested in getting knockoff gear because of trust issues, but when lights are $4K+ for a single light with a trusted brand, its just unreasonable for me to spend that much money on them when I dont have that much.
 
Might be a good time to let folks who are considering a set of used HMIs know that quality replacement lamps for a typical HMI run between $200 for smaller lamps like a 575w to well over $600 for larger lamps, but are something you might think about keeping on hand. Sure would suck to be on location with money on the line, and have your only lamp go Pop!
 
Michael, your response seems to be proof of the point I was trying to make, unless I am misunderstanding you and we are saying the same thing. Best to be thinking about the higher-budget jobs where you would normally rent the lighting package elsewhere; what gear do you regularly use, how many times in a year do you use a particular unit, if you were to buy it and rent it to production, how many jobs will it take to pay it off, can I rent it to others in my area, etc. And then you will still have to use on your own projects, or if you opt to just bring it along on the barely-paying jobs at your discretion.

Owning good dependable gear is a long-term business decision. Possibly you can partner with someone else, borrow money, work out a business plan. Not having $4k in your pocket doesn't mean you can't raise it. People don't really buy houses, they "lease to own" from the bank; same thing applies here. Maybe even the place you normally rent gear from can be your ally in this: they can subrent the head from you for other jobs which will help pay it off quicker. I don't know the extent of your situation so it's hard to say for sure. I'm just reading between the lines.

BTW if you think I don't know about small markets, starting out as a young DP, making low rates, not having much capital, acquiring a personal package etc...been there, done that. I wouldn't offer advice otherwise.
 
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The UK Guild of Television Camermen have been talking about these recently (not sure if this link will work for you) http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/gtc_forum/message/67413

Just in case it doesn't - there can be a few issues. First, and most worrying is that one delivered to a member had the live conductor connected to the case of the unit - so a shock would be 100% certain. The lens appears to be identical to the Tungsten version, so dangerous UV may well be let through. No interlock to stop the unit operating when the case is opened, unwired indicators and no electronic connection to the knob intended to control flicker. In addition, fans so noisy that people complained. I made some comments on the forum based on my own experience buying Chinese product, but the danger seems to be that you are buying a product assembled from a kit of parts by small businesses who may have no idea at all how to do it, or what the bits are actually for. Here in the UK we have a system for testing appliances - and pretty well you plug the device in to the tester, attach a ground probe to the item under test, and the device checks for misfired cables, miswired grounds and cable resistance etc. You then get a pass or fail. As supplied, these Chinese lights routinely fail the test. My own experience is that it's usually poorly tightened grounds, or screws that need to be 'bitten' into the aluminium just done up hand tight. Sometimes, they get the colour coding back to front, and this also generate a fail. I've had some of the non-HMI products from one supplier that had been assembled correctly, and another who really had no clue how the things even went together! Very much a buyer beware situation. My usual advice is that you never buy chinese if you can't afford to lose the money, and don't have the electrical knowledge to repair and modify the products before you use them.
 
As Paul said many of Chinise products are made by people who have no idea what they are assembling.

As for used HMIs. If you have some technical know-how - go for it.
Understand that you will use those less often then you anticipate (this was so in my case - my 6 HMIs are getting less use then i assumed).
1.2 is NOT the most popular unit surprisingly - it's 575 and 200 in my case as the lights are much smaller.

I'm not sure how you operate with your gear but for me efficiency is important thus having same manufactures is important - so all the ballasts, connectors BDs match. So i suggest on choosing one brand and sticking to it.

Brands of HMI lights (with is pluses and minuses):
Arri (125, 200, 400, 575, 1.2, 1.8)
+ Popular brand. 1.8 is the brightest light one can power-up with wall outlet.
+ Industry standard so they are easy to re-sell but also they are more expensive then others when buying used.
- Large heads thus not so portable. Everything above 400 require junior receiver so you can’t mount the light on basic stands easily.

LTM (200, 575, 1.2)
+ Comparably small heads. Baby yoke fits on all stands.
- It seems LTM is out of business.

Desisti (200, 575, 1.2)
+ relatively inexpensive when bough used (probably because of their size those lights do net get much love)
- heads are HUGE and most lights (even 575) use beefy yoke

K5600 (200, 400, 800)
+ smalest heads available
+ no problems reseling the light as everyone wants those lights
- new lights cost a small fortune, use is not that much cheaper

Other brands I haven’t used:
Mole, Sunray, CMC, Strand, CoolLights, Kobolt

Personally i settled on LTMs because the heads are similarly sized to K5600, still knowing that the company is out of business i would rethink that approach.
 
I get where the OP is coming from - I would love to have a pretty decent daylight source for grab & go, no sending someone out for a rental, etc.

By decent I mean something in the 575 - 1.2 range... past that and you'll be in generator territory anyway. Even a 575 par would open some massive possibilities for me for low budget & last minute stuff. I do a fair amount of animation & effect work where I'm constantly walking from my mac to a small set and shooting "the next scene" or "the better idea". Awesome way to work, shoot it as you re-design it, stick the card in the reader and go. Working at the speed of thought.

Barry Green had some decent luck with a Chinese HMI (he called it a "light cannon"). But a $1k light isn't something I can easily consider disposable. I'd follow the advice of checking with Cool Lights or Pyramid. They stand behind their stuff.
 
DDirector said:
The gigs I get are often small budget and often rely on my to provide all the gear.
Were not talking about several thousand dollar gigs for a days work.

I've use HMI's all the time whenever I have the chance to rent out gear.
This is usually when there is a big budget to rent gear. But, when there isnt a big enough budget to rent gear, Id have to provide my own.
Thus, Id like to own HMI's as I do use them often and would be beneficial to me.

Its very slow now but slowly picking up business. I'm working part time while I hope to find more gigs.
So far I don't have a lot saved up.

Ive never been interested in getting knockoff gear because of trust issues, but when lights are $4K+ for a single light with a trusted brand, its just unreasonable for me to spend that much money on them when I dont have that much.
Click to expand...

Mike, all of the answers your looking for are in the post that I've quoted from you above. If work is slow for your, purchasing a very maintenance heavy piece of gear like an HMI would not be the best use of your money in my opinion. As freelance DP's we are always tempted by the thought that "if I had that piece of gear, I could make all kinds of awesome shots work!" This also depends on if lighting/shooting is your hobby or your career. Since you said you had at least a part time job at the moment, for now it seems like it's the first one.

HMI's are maintenance heavy, large and not very portable. 1/2 of what makes a HMI usefull is the variety of lensing that you place in the fixture. So, lenses are pretty much a must in order to control your beam spread. I know the temptation is strong to get a powerful daylight source. I've used the 1.2w versions a lot. But it depends on the budgets your working with. For me, I pretty much only use them if I have a Gaffer, G&E van and grips on set. You'll have to move them and they are temperamental. My gaffer has had several instances with his own grips tripping the breaker on the unit on set and having it shut down on them. And they're familiar with the units.

Once you start needing, using HMI's the crew grows from just a DP and assistant to needing at least a Gaffer, G&E van and 2 Grip/Electricians. If you aren't working with this budgets regularly with your clients, it wouldn't make any sense to purchase one. The maintenance, transportation alone wouldn't be a waste of money.

I took a look at your site, and your gear list. If that list is accurate there are a number of pieces of gear that I would suggest you purchase instead of an HMI. Do you have a slider? A small portable jib? A portable production monitor? Hand Held rig? These are all things that would up your production value and your reel without going under in an expensive "mistake."

Also, you had mentioned that you don't get paid a thousand per day for a shoot. If this is not happening with your clients, HMI's shouldn't be even on the table as an option for what are essentially "no budget" gigs. It's tempting to put yourself out to get the shot, but it makes no business sense to essentially give away equipment in order to get work. People should hire you for your skills, and your eye. If they aren't, most of the time they are just using you for your gear. And that means they probably aren't going to be long term contacts anyway.

Of course these are all my opinions. I'd just hate to see another filmmaker go into a bunch of debt over a costly mistake.
 
Michael,
Rent. Or cut a deal with someone, find another shooter and split on an instrument. Though you might get a good price from Pyramid or one of the other American suppliers the cost of shipping, especially if you buy a mag ballast will be very high. Then you have to get it into the country and that will require a broker and that will cost you money too unless you go and clear it yourself. Not sure where the UPS port of entry is for Oakville/Toronto but if its in Toronto you might be ok otherwise its Erie or down by Brockville or? This is not just an opinion. I bought a 575 and ballast from the States and the shipping alone was close to $250.00.
 
I do NOT do this as a hobby.
This is where my main source of income comes from. However, I am not as advanced as some people who work with big clients making several grand a day.
I would like to, but I havent gotten those types of jobs yet. So, dont be saying things that arent true.
It is slow right now, and has been throughout the winter season, so I took on a part-time job. Right now that is my main source of income, but that doesnt mean I am doing this as a hobby.

I do agree that I shouldn't be getting a whole bunch of equipment and just giving it away for nothing. I dont rent out my gear and my services knowing that it would cost several grand a day to do it only for a few hundred.
But then again, I am hoping that with a bit more gear, I would be able to find more clients. Not everyone wants to rent gear, hence why Id like my own gear. And its gear that Ive been using many times on other shoots.
 
DDirector said:
I do agree that I shouldn't be getting a whole bunch of equipment and just giving it away for nothing.
But then again, I am hoping that with a bit more gear, I would be able to find more clients..
Click to expand...

Many folks make this same bad business decision. "if I buy it they will Come".

And that's the bottom line.... You are running a business! And running a successful business means making smart business decisions.

Can I afford an Arri Alexa? Yes, and no! I may have the capital to purchase an Alexa, but since I do not have a client base in place which will pay the needed rate to pay off the Alexa, the purchase would be an out of pocket which I would need to pay, making this a very poor business purchase. Sure all my other clients would love to shoot on the Alexa, but why would I out of pocket this expense just so my other clients can use an Alexa?

You stated that "not everybody wants to rent gear", hence why you would like your own gear..... Which basically translates into you paying for what the client would normally pay for in rental fees, just to get the job. It's a great deal for the client, pick the guy who will bring the most free gear to the shoot for the lowest price. But this useually ends up becoming a race to the bottom.

All the best!

Dave
 
I have heard very bad things about these lights.

I do think a 1.2k is a very useful light. The M18 is very, very useful. Both are affordable rentals.

I'm in the same camp... started out shooting five years ago and still taking a net loss on the endeavor and it's because I approach things this way. It's easier to make money when you're concerned about what your clients wants and needs, not what you think would make you a better shooter to your own standards. HMIs are a pain. They're easy to use on casual shoots since blowing a fuse isn't the end of the world and slow set ups are ok, but on bigger shoots you'd want a decent crew and if the client can afford a crew the client can afford a rental.
 
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