Tripod question...HELP!!!

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david_p

Veteran
hi everyone,

i want to get the Miller Solo VJ Carbon Fiber 3 Stage legs (100mm) and want to use the Vinten Vision 3 Head (75mm) on it. i will be using the Sony EX-1

i have seen here and there that there are people using these Miller Solo VJ legs with various heads from different manufacturers but the ***QUESTION IS***...what specific "ITEM" is needed to make the Vinten adapt down to the Miller Solo legs...and can this be done with perfect results? would the Miller 75mm-100mm Bowl Adaptor work? i have found extreme hesitation as to whether this adaptor would fit between the two manufacturers.

B&H & Adorama couldnt answer the question. EVSonline has been the most interested and helpful in trying to get this question answered. EVS & myself have contacted both manufacturers to no avail at this point. its hard to get a call back from Miller.

if matching these two components cant be done then i suppose i will strongly consider the Sachtler DV-6 or DV-8. does anyone have *tangible* info of what item would be necessary to make this package work with the Miller Solo VJ legs?

thanks in advance!
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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david_p said:
hi everyone,
i am want to get the Miller Solo VJ Carbon Fiber 3 Stage legs (100mm) and want to use the Vinten Vision 3 Head (75mm) on it. i will be using the Sony EX-1.................... would the Miller 75mm-100mm Bowl Adaptor work? i have found extreme hesitation as to whether this adaptor would fit between the two manufacturers...........
david
www.davidprobst.com
Click to expand...

a 75mm-100mm bowl adapter is to adapt a 75mm head to a 100mm bowl is it not? I have no tangible experience but can't see why that would not work unless it floats inside the bowl---might make for sloppy leveling i suppose.
On the other hand do you really need a 3-stage?, you could go with a SOLO CF 2-stage 75mm, save you some $$ and be done with it.
 
David,

Go to BogenImaging.com - Products - Tripods and support - Manfrotto -Accessories for - Tripods - Ball adapters.

Very hard to find......actually it's the only source I have found! B&H stocks these or will order these. They are generic and reasonably priced.

JoJo
 
gco said:
a 75mm-100mm bowl adapter is to adapt a 75mm head to a 100mm bowl is it not? I have no tangible experience but can't see why that would not work unless it floats inside the bowl---might make for sloppy leveling i suppose.
On the other hand do you really need a 3-stage?, you could go with a SOLO CF 2-stage 75mm, save you some $$ and be done with it.
Click to expand...
hi gco,

one might think that it sould be as easy as just using the 75-100mm adaptor but none of the "SELLERS" wants to commit to if it will work properly or not. it seems that the design (possibly) of the Miller is too different from the Vinten to predict success. i am hoping someone out there will have had direct experience with this.

i want the 3 stage for the height. around 73.6" and ill get another 5" or so with the camera mounted. i seriously considered the Sachtler "SOOM" (not cheap) that gets seriously tall but thought i would save the cash and settle for the Miller Solo 3 stage. plus it would fold down enough to take it on a plane which would be very cool.

at this point i am interested in ANY of the various heads ***and adaptor used***to match up with these Miller Solo VJ legs.

i wouldnt rule out just buying a Miller Arrow or Sachtler head (although a bit more money). there isnt near as much discussion out there on the net about the Miller Arrow like there is with Vinten/Sachtler/Cartoni & Manfrotto.

im in St. Louis and none of this equipment can be found to try out. anyone know of a reseller in the Chicago area that would stock all of this gear that i could try out? it would be worth the drive to touch and see!

thanks for your reply.
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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JoJo Gunn said:
David,

Go to BogenImaging.com - Products - Tripods and support - Manfrotto -Accessories for - Tripods - Ball adapters.

Very hard to find......actually it's the only source I have found! B&H stocks these or will order these. They are generic and reasonably priced.

JoJo
Click to expand...
hi jojo,

i assume you mean that Bogen will have an adaptor that will work for the Miller/Vinten scenario? or were you suggesting that i should go with a set of Bogen legs instead?

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
well, i just got my question answered from Miller.

its the Miller "378 75mm Ball Base Head to 100mm Bowl Adapter". slighty different from the one that i had originally guessed on which was model "379".

he also told me that EVS needed to contact Vinten and make sure they ordered the "longer stud" Vinten Vision 3 specifically.

i didnt think i would get a call back very fast from MILLER, so i was surprised to hear back this late in the day. the representatives name was Gus. very helpful in getting me the correct info. also offered to send me some of their gear if i had an interest to try anything out. i plan to stick with the Miller/Vinten combo at this point though. i got a very good customer support vibe from him! its nice to know that a big company like this will be solid and reliable with their customer support if and when and if something breaks down in the future.

thanks to those that responded in this thread.
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
WOW, that is very cool that you got a reply from Miller no less an offer to try out their gear?????. Amazing---speaks very well of the company.

"one might think that it sould be as easy as just using the 75-100mm adaptor but none of the "SELLERS" wants to commit to if it will work properly or not. it seems that the design (possibly) of the Miller is too different from the Vinten to predict success. i am hoping someone out there will have had direct experience with this."

I had no clue their could be an issue like this.
Thanks for posting this---hey i learned something.
 
try Abel. They're helpful. Miller is funny in that not everything is compatible with others. (ie. the cup on the tie down is too small to grip into the miller bowl, etc). Abel matched parts so I could put a Cartoni Focus on VJ legs.

While we're at at, why the Vinten Vision? Well built but not true fluid.
 
I just bought a Bogen 75 to 100mm adapter to use a Vinten Pro6 head on Varizooom sticks with 100mm bowl.
The head worked fine in the adapter but the adapter to sticks compatibility was an issue. The adapter didn't seat well on the bowl lip. It would just slide around never locking in place.

Didn't like the head anyway so sent it back. Kept the adapter to have machined so it drops into the upper part of the bowl. I ordered the Focus head with 100mm half bowl but I'd like the option to use the sticks with a 75mm setup.
 
Tim Naylor said:
try Abel. They're helpful. Miller is funny in that not everything is compatible with others. (ie. the cup on the tie down is too small to grip into the miller bowl, etc). Abel matched parts so I could put a Cartoni Focus on VJ legs.

While we're at at, why the Vinten Vision? Well built but not true fluid.
Click to expand...
hi tim,

i was almost ready to pull the tirgger on the Cartoni Focus but after reading more and more threads i finally summized that it just isnt as well built plus, many posts and reviewers have stated that it has a definite "backlash" at the end of a pan. bummer! that was the nail in the coffin for me. i have spent easily over 40-50 hours researching this and have yet to hear of this as an "backlash" issue with the Vintens. in fact time and time again i hear its operation to be dead on with **none** of this artifacting.

if i could try these out in person i could end up choosing another brand but i cant so...ill never know at this point. i live in St. Louis, not a small city but cant find this kind of gear here in stock.

i know the Sachtler's are highly regarded and respected but i still come back to the Vinten's for the reasons below.....

what really intrigued me about the Vinten's is something i saw on their PDF's about their technologies built into their heads. by the way...they are the only company that i have seen that give serious in depth explanations with logical graphs that give you clean insight as to how the heads perform. that got me thinking and was also consistently backed up with all of the reviews and threads i read.

on the Vinten's there is a **very steep** slope of resistance when starting a pan from a still or near still position (seeming to insure smooth entry into a pan)...then...that resistance **levels off dramatically**... which explains why all that i have read that you can quickly BURST into a pan **much faster** without any odd resistance from unexepted build up of fluid movements or whatever the head is doing to try to compensate from this erratic change in velecity.

all i have read stated that it would be great for sports or any serious erratic types of shooting. also that the Vinten is basically a **given** that you wont have cheap ameteur **jerkiness** while entering or exiting a pan or tilt movement. is it possible that Sachtlers do this same thing...probably...maybe it is *but* i have never read anyone ever describe this performance trait about their Sachtler, Cartoni, Manfrotto etc.

unfortunately, most tripod posts and even many reviews i have read talk mostly of the *features* with not near as much of the real **nuances* of how ***expressive*** it is to shoot with. i wish i could find more of those kinds of user experiences.

i have no doubt that the Cartoni Focus is a sweet head in many respects, especially for the money. a very telling and in depth post (might have been here?) where the guy had both of these heads...and actually enjoyed the Cartoni to operate more than the Vinten because of the *wet* feel but concluded that in a blind test of shooting both....he would always end up picking the Vinten over the Cartoni.

from what i conclude the Cartoni might be a more enjoyable feeling head but i see just too many negatives. build and backlash being the worst.

if anyone would like to give me some tangibles on other heads (not so much specs but rather *feel*) i am open ears and would like to hear some more indepth opinions. id like to hear a Sachtler user tell me that my specific **likes* about the Vinten head are equally in their Sachtler and maybe even more.

its been sort of frustrating only being able to read and not touch. from the knowledge i have at this point i still feel ***OVERALL*** in my gut that the Vinten is a solid way to go since the *negatives* are almost none.

i am currently waiting to hear back the the retail shop i will be buying from. in the meantime i am open ears for the rest of the day...anyone?

thanks,
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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David:

You sound as if you are asking the right questions and have carefully done the proper research. Just two issues come to mind..

1. The cheaper line of Vintens are basically re-engineered Bogens. NOT the good stuff but the lower end ones are basically Bogens, which is not a good thing. Vitec Group owns Bogen/Manfrotto, Vinten, Sachtler. If you put the new Bogen 503 HDV next to the lower line Vintens, they look and seem to perform pretty similarly.

2. If you can make the drive up to Chicago, there are lots of retailers that should have these on their floor and will let you play with them. I would STRONGLY advise making the drive and doing a hands on. You owe it to yourself to try Sachtler, Miller, O'Connor and Panther before buying a Vinten. The upper end Vintens are quite good but so are all of the heads I outlined in the this paragraph. When you try them, at least one of them will be the right fit for your touch.

I rented Sachtlers a lot early in my career and fell in love with them, the German engineering, the smoothness and build quality. So I have owned several of them over the years, they are great products. I also used O'Connors in film school and I love O'Connors. Unfortunately they have pretty much pulled out of the sub-$5,000.00 market so small camera owners need not apply for the O'Connor. It's a shame, their smaller heads were so good.

Good luck,

Dan
 
hi dan,

i am aware that the entry level Vinten's are just rebadged Bogens (Pro-6 & Pro-10) but the Vision 3 is not from what i have read. am i correect?

i talked to a rep for Vitec and inquired about the Vision 6 and he said that the Ex-1 by itself would be a little light weight for the Vision 6 unless i would add rails 35mm adaptor etc. he also said the only tangible difference between the Vision 3 vs 6 is basically weight capacity and the Vision 3 needed to use interchangable springs.

i just ordered the Miller legs with the Vision 3 not more than an hour after my last post that i made earlier today. i tried to do some searches for Chicago retailers but to no avail since im not the best internet searcher. oh well. i would happily gone there to try them out. i would fully expect to have many different impressions if i had been able to try all of the brands out in person.

i kind of suspect though that any of the discussed tripods would be way better than what i currently have. so one way or another it will be a step up.

i think the Miller legs are going to a clear winner and if im not 100% with the Vinten i can always return it for something else if need be. also, i will only have about $1,000 in the head so if i decide to keep it then sour on it i dont think ill loose too much in trying to sell it later. now if i was dropping 3-4k for a head then its a different story.

could you recommend a few good stores in the Chicago area for future reference? the type of store that has almost everything in stock/showroom?

honestly, this has been much tougher trying to pick out than making the EX-1 purchase.

i have read bundles of your posts and appreciate and enjoy a person with solid opinions that are backed up with good tangibles like you always do. keep em comin!

thanks,
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
Jim quote..."Didn't like the head anyway so sent it back. Kept the adapter to have machined so it drops into the upper part of the bowl. I ordered the Focus head with 100mm half bowl but I'd like the option to use the sticks with a 75mm setup".


hi jim,

just curious, what didnt you like about the Vision 6 head? were you able to try the Focus before ordering it?

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
david_p said:
hi dan,

i am aware that the entry level Vinten's are just rebadged Bogens (Pro-6 & Pro-10) but the Vision 3 is not from what i have read. am i correect?

i talked to a rep for Vitec and inquired about the Vision 6 and he said that the Ex-1 by itself would be a little light weight for the Vision 6 unless i would add rails 35mm adaptor etc. he also said the only tangible difference between the Vision 3 vs 6 is basically weight capacity and the Vision 3 needed to use interchangable springs.

i just ordered the Miller legs with the Vision 3 not more than an hour after my last post that i made earlier today. i tried to do some searches for Chicago retailers but to no avail since im not the best internet searcher. oh well. i would happily gone there to try them out. i would fully expect to have many different impressions if i had been able to try all of the brands out in person.

i kind of suspect though that any of the discussed tripods would be way better than what i currently have. so one way or another it will be a step up.

i think the Miller legs are going to a clear winner and if im not 100% with the Vinten i can always return it for something else if need be. also, i will only have about $1,000 in the head so if i decide to keep it then sour on it i dont think ill loose too much in trying to sell it later. now if i was dropping 3-4k for a head then its a different story.

could you recommend a few good stores in the Chicago area for future reference? the type of store that has almost everything in stock/showroom?

honestly, this has been much tougher trying to pick out than making the EX-1 purchase.

i have read bundles of your posts and appreciate and enjoy a person with solid opinions that are backed up with good tangibles like you always do. keep em comin!

thanks,
david
www.davidprobst.com
Click to expand...

There are many more but two excellent places that come to mind would be Fletcher and Zacuto. Someone from Chicago should chime in here, I am from LA, what do I know? ;-)

Dan
 
david_p,

Actually it was the Vinten Pro6. I could never get a good high resistance setting on the pan or tilt drags. I did try the Cartoni before buying and it's more to my liking. No backlash.
 
jimpatro said:
david_p,

Actually it was the Vinten Pro6. I could never get a good high resistance setting on the pan or tilt drags. I did try the Cartoni before buying and it's more to my liking. No backlash.
Click to expand...
hi jim,

the Pro6 is a rebadged bogen, yes? i would expect that the Vision Series will be a distinct bump up from their entry level Pro series (Bogen).

some of my research seems to elude though that even the Vision series doesnt get real tight either. im keeping my fingers crossed that i will like it. if its a bomb...ill return it for something else. im sure i will keep the Miller legs though.

how long have you had your Cartoni and how do you feel about its build quality? do you think all of the little knobs and leavers will survive normal use? since you arent experiencing any backlash i wonder if there are variances in x amount of their manufactured units.

thanks for your input!
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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I guess at that price point it's hit or miss as far as quality control goes. I got lucky. Just had mine a couple of days but have used the Focus before. For the weight of the 200 with matte box and FS100 and the Box FS it's just right. Didn't have to spring for a Sachtler. Used plenty of them in the past but I'll get by with the Focus for this setup.

And I've used the Vinten Vision series and liked them.
 
FINAL CONCLUSION...(Vinten Vision 3 head coupled with the Miller Solo VJ legs)

unfortunately the Miller 75-100mm adaptor (#378) which was recommended by the Miller rep didnt work at all. its way to wide where the Vision 3 ball sits too low in this bowl to where you cant even pan without it rubbing because of not enough clearance. i would suggest extreme caution when putting a non Miller head to the Miller legs (using Miller's adaptor) since their bowls appear to be a very propriotory design for their gear only.

actually "Jo Jo Gunn" on the first page of this thread had the answer to my initial question. i could have saved myself some time and grief had i just went with his suggestion in the first place which was the Bogen 75-100mm adaptor. it works perfect and it was only $32 vs the Miller adaptor priced at $158.00. who would have thought that the Miller rep could be that far off. oh well, he is still a cool guy and tried at least!

thanks Jo Jo!

NOW MY COMMENTS on the Vision 3 head.
it feels seriously accurate for the most part. i have heard some complain that it doesnt get quite tight enough on its most extreme drag setting. with the EX1 loaded for me its plenty tight if i clamp down on the drag. no problem whatsoever doing diagonals or even circular related movements. if the drag is clamped down, going into the slowest and most subtle of movements is effortless and smooth as butter. i couldnt be more happy with this at this point.

if anyone read my intitial comments on this thread i talked about what seemed to be Vinten's **stated/documented** trademark of being able to be clamped down but still go into very quick flash pans. im not sure i am feeling this as much as i thought it might be. with that said...i dont ever feel and over sense of buildup when i decide to pan real fast but there is still *uniform* resistance because it is tightened down. i have done a few soccer games and with the action changing directions very quickly i conceded that i need to use a drag near the middle of its range or it just doesnt pop into the opposite direction as fast as the play is happening which is instantly fast. ((could it be that i need to workout?)) from their literature i thought that i could have the drag real tight but after i got it going that somehow it would just *loosen* in some way to make quicker continuing movement *easier*. my conclusion is...i dont think so. now, it is possible that if i were to play with some other brands...and they happened to have some sort of odd resistance to quick changes...then...maybe i would give a little more credit to the Vinten. maybe. although this feature didnt quite pan out to be what i thought it might be...it is in no way any kind of deal breaker.

the MILLER legs...
holy cow! fully extended with the camera mounted...WOW! folks...this is extreme. i am 6 feet tall and standing on a chair doesnt even get me close to the eyepiece. a step ladder will be in order for this one. the cool thing though...being able to plant my setup right in front of a singer at a microphone for instance (music video) and get the *downlooking* perspective will be *GOLD*. solid high angles is going to be a treat overall! honestly...for me, a whole new world has just opened up to me creatively because of this feature. of course getting high up has been possible if i would want to rig stuff to stack the tripod legs on but this is really the ultimatte hassle so i usually just didnt do it in the past. also, shooting over crowds will offer quite a bit of flexabilities as well. beware though...if you want to keep a discreet low profile...you wont want to extend these legs with your camera mounted. i kid you not...it is shocking to look at...like Wilt Chamberlin in the room. this does not look natural in the least.

the Miller Solo VJ legs are very light and do fold up very compact considering. they are not a quick set up and down though. in a brutal run and gun...i will suggest to consider something else with the quick release knobs.

the only real negative is...i do have a *little* bit of *backlash/backdrift* on the Vision 3 head. at first i thought it was because i had to use my cheaper Libec legs until i got the Miller leg adaptor. even with the Miller legs i still get a little bit of backlash. i dont believe its the legs doing it either. i hadnt heard of ***anyone***ever stating that the Vinten would do this. do i have a lemon? dont know but i plan to use it as is but before warranty is up i will probably send it in to see if there is something a little funky about my paticular unit. for the moment though i dont want to part with this setup.

one of the main reasons i bailed on the Cartoni Focus was because i had read many people complaining of backlash. i had heard none of this on the Vinten. hmm...oh well!

IN CONCLUSION...the Vision 3 is very pristine in its performance. some have said it is somewhat *sterile*. to me sterile sounds like a slight negative. i would say it is extremely accurate with a serious sense of ***precision*** and very predictable in its movements. its very easy to be expressive with this setup. no jitters in sight and playback of the video is a treat for my eyes.

someday when i get to try out a Sachtler/Cartoni/O'Conner...etc, i will then be able to really see if there is anything overly special about the Vinten. for right now though i am near completely happy with my $2,000 purchase. even if one day i find that one of the other brands is more pleasing to me...more that likely i will still want to keep the Miller legs so the only thing that could switch would be the Vision 3 head. it wont be much of financial loss it that would ever happen.

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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David ...

David ...

Those miller solo legs are brilliant!! I've got the DS20 solo and I'm having no problems at the moment. It's new ... so ... we'll see how it goes!
 
I feel sorry for all of those shooters out there who have never tried the Miller Solo DV/VJ legs. Love mine and think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Dan
 
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