FS5: Transitioning: ProRes RAW on the PC

Michael Erlewine

Michael Erlewine

Well-known member
Transitioning: ProRes RAW on the PC

I’m an experienced still photographer (close-up focus stacking) who specializes in APO (apochromatic) lenses in the Nikon system (currently the Nikon D850). However, with the advent of Apple ProRes RAW as a reasonably small (easy to use) codec and the Atomos Shogun Inferno, there is no reason I could not get some good clarity with the ProRes RAW shooting video. I have used raw files for many years and can’t imagine not developing in raw. Now that ProRes may soon be available in many formats, I see no reason why not to begin to treat video like stills as far as raw is concerned.

I have owned a Sony FS700 with an Odyssey 7Q and the 4k upgrade, but currently have the Sony FS5 and no external recorder. The big problem is I am not on a Mac system any longer, but rather on PC because for me it is faster. And I read that Apple ProRes RAW is not able to export ProRes RAW, etc. I hear Adobe may be working on it, but who knows how long that will take.
So, I am asking those of you who know, who have the time to guide me, to point out exactly what I need to get into ProRes RAW. Here is what I have come up with:
Upgrade my FS5 with the RAW Package.

Purchase the Atomos Shogun Inferno

Get SSD drives, 1 TB, for the Inferno (what brand is best that perhaps costs less?”
Get batteries for the Shogun,
SDI cords, of course.
If I get the above stuff, can I record ProRes RAW and just save it until Adobe lets me work with it on a PC. Or, is there any workaround that lets me shoot ProRes RAW now and get it into Adobe Premiere PRO CC now and work with it.

I’m sure many of you are now doing ProRes RAW on Macs and enjoying it. Any breadcrumbs you could share would be very much appreciated.
Thanks.
 
I think you'd be all set until Adobe supports it...if they do.

But I would also like to mention that ProRes RAW may or may not provide you the same flexibility you're used to in the stills world. It's RAW - whatever that means anymore - but you may find CinemaDNG RAW from the FS5 a much better option if you'd like to treat the video like stills. CDNG is supported in Premiere.

Blackmagic shooters have been editing their RAW video like stills for years now...even in photography software like Photoshop and Lightroom. Amazing workflow.

If you had all of the gear above at least you could get started with that (if interested).
 
I'm not sure how big a deal ProRes RAW is. Yes, I've read Apple's marketing white paper available here:
https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW_White_Paper.pdf

And I've spoken with programmers and engineers and others about it. Doesn't seem like a huge game changer. And Apple appears to view it as a competitive advantage, so I'm not sure they'll license or allow it to run on Windows machines (or even other NLEs) anytime soon. Perhaps there will be more information on (and perhaps support from other companies) around the time of the IBC tradeshow in September.

In the meantime, I'd keep working in formats and workflows that I can take advantage of now, not that I might or might not be able to use in the future. And for me and others I work with, the key formats these days tend to include XAVC, XF-AVC, RED stuff, "regular" ProRes, ARRIRAW, and more. ProRes RAW is not currently one of those formats... It might be some day in the future, but not now.

So I'm waiting for more clarity on and support for ProRes RAW before I dive into it.
 
NorBro said:
I think you'd be all set until Adobe supports it...if they do.

But I would also like to mention that ProRes RAW may or may not provide you the same flexibility you're used to in the stills world. It's RAW - whatever that means anymore - but you may find CinemaDNG RAW from the FS5 a much better option if you'd like to treat the video like stills. CDNG is supported in Premiere.

Blackmagic shooters have been editing their RAW video like stills for years now...even in photography software like Photoshop and Lightroom. Amazing workflow.

If you had all of the gear above at least you could get started with that (if interested).
Click to expand...

If I read right, CDNG is huge in storage requirements.

I am not so interest in deriving stills from ProRes Raw (although when 8K becomes normal), there will be software (I imagine) for that.

I expect video raw as in ProRes RAW to not as cool as with still photography, if only because it is much smaller than the files from my Nikon D850 which are cool

If you know of any other workaround or way to have ProRes RAW on the PC, please let me know.
 
No PR RAW for Windows/Adobe...it's a Mac/Apple thing right now as mentioned above. Apple never decided to support CinemaDNG (besides being able to just import it in FCPX) so they can very well decide not to let anyone else use their ProRes RAW.

Maybe there is (or will be) third-party software for Windows that can transcode it, but then there is no point in using it...might as well shoot regular ProRes.

As far as CDNG, the files are big...and I meant more about the flexibility of post (not deriving stills from the footage).
 
I guess I lost this post, so I will try again.

If I can't use ProRes RAW on the PC now or perhaps ever, someone mentioned I could still use regular ProRes. How is that done? Is that part of the SF5 or part of the $K upgrade or what? Please point where I can learn about that.
 
Here's the Atomos support page for the FS5:

https://www.atomos.com/cameras/sony-pxw-fs5

In short...you can shoot regular ProRes (various flavors) without the RAW upgrade straight into the Inferno. Via HDMI or SDI (I don't know what the output specs are of either but you can still shoot ProRes, just might not be 10-bit, 4:2:2 if the connection is not outputting that).

Or you can convert the RAW signal into ProRes with the RAW upgrade straight into the Inferno. (This is where you get all of the special resolutions/framerates.)

Both will import natively into Premiere.

I recommend YouTube...it's today's modern day film school and it's where 99% of people currently in the industry learn everything (or learn more). Information for topics like this is endless...and it's better seeing and hearing someone else go through it (if available) than reading about it, IMO.
 
Thank you, although ironically I'm recommending to go watch someone but I wouldn't watch anyone myself, ha (at least not for this).

I always rent and learn everything myself, my way...truly the best method, IMO. You retain the information better too.

I have wasted a small fortune on cameras that I ended up hating and have learned through the process of renting and experiencing gear to what I truly like and dislike.

(And I have grown to hate external recorders.)
 
Thanks for the help. I understand that waiting for ProRes RAW may be forever.

So, I believe I will get the Atomos Shogun Inferno.

Does anyone want to suggest which of the following 1 TB drives are the best quality or best quality for the price?

SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD 1TB
SANDISK X400 SSD 1TB $234.99
SONY G SERIES PROFESSIONAL SSE 960 GB
OWC EXTREME PRO 6G 960GB
ANGLEBIRD AV PRO XT SSD 1 TB
ANGLEBIRD 4KRAW ECO SSD 1TB


I will get 2 TB SSD drives. Still not sure.

I would like to end up with the best visual quality. Period. I can shoot 4K if needed, but will probably reduce it to HD or whatever is the very best quality I can get out of this setup. Any suggestions. I am also learning online and know how to, very well, but I'm looking for specific suggestions for an optimized result. Thanks for the patience those of you have had to assist me. I do my best to help others where I know and at no charge. Here are some links to my free tutorials.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5xDr8mWUwrzi4bxY978O1DQykUrj-S2I

http://spiritgrooves.net/e-Books.aspx#Photography
 
You're going to want to shoot 4K for the absolute best visual quality the camera can offer. Period. No High-Definition.

Here's a chart to various drives Atomos tested and recommends (I think all but one of your suggestions made it but it's best to see what's exactly supported):

https://www.atomos.com/drives (scroll down & choose Shogun Inferno)

All of the Angelbirds (besides the AV PRO MKII 500GB) and the two Sonys pass everything.

Hopefully fellow FS5 Shogun Inferno RAW shooters can chime in more.
 
Thanks NorBro.

You are suggesting that everything be done in 4K and then reduced to 2K or 1080 HD. Where would I read about the steps involved? I have spent many hours reading online, but I come across so many different approaches that I end up getting stalled. I am just looking for some help.

Basically I have very fine lenses that I want to adapt to the SF5, mostly doing close-up indoor photography, but trying to do with video what I am used to in clear still photography. (as best that can be done) the clearest shots possible. You can ask me about APO lenses and I know a ton, and I have shot video, but sold my FD700 some time ago because I was not shooting and it was losing value. Time marches on, so there must be a precise codec or two for optimum clarity of resolution, which video is not so good at, but maybe now we are getting there.

So I shoot in 4K, which version? Then I will down-convert it to what? HD, HD Q, 2K. I ultimately want something I can post on Youtube or similar in as clear a resolution as possible.
 
If you would like the best-of-the-best, you shoot in 4K RAW (my recommendation is CinemaDNG) - edit in 4K - and deliver in 4K.

If you must deliver in 2K then you can but you should still edit your work on a 4K timeline.

The photography world has always been ahead of the video world, but video has definitely caught up a bit with RAW recording and high resolution cameras (8K REDs, etc).

As far as editing, there is really no step-by-step guide. Everyone has their own workflows in different programs. And they may use different camera settings. Different glass. With different lighting. You're going to have to learn how to grade as well.

It's really impossible to provide a starting point as there is SO MUCH to consider (as you have learned).

We all keep learning and improving every single day.
 
NorBro said:
If you would like the best-of-the-best, you shoot in 4K RAW (my recommendation is CinemaDNG) - edit in 4K - and deliver in 4K.

If you must deliver in 2K then you can but you should still edit your work on a 4K timeline.

The photography world has always been ahead of the video world, but video has definitely caught up a bit with RAW recording and high resolution cameras (8K REDs, etc).

As far as editing, there is really no step-by-step guide. Everyone has their own workflows in different programs. And they may use different camera settings. With different lighting. You're going to have to learn how to grade as well.

It's really impossible to provide a starting point as there is SO MUCH to consider.

We all keep learning and improving every single day.
Click to expand...


Of course, I know all about editing in raw; have done it religiously for years, so that is not my problem. What I wanted to know is pretty much what you just told me:

Shoot in 4K. You mention CinemaDNG. Is that the clearest resolution? Delivering in 4K, of course I can do, since I will have it edited and ready. However, I would like to deliver in some lower format. Which is best? HD or 2K. I don't really know what 2K is. I may break down and buy a Mac just to do ProRes Raw. LOL. I have several Max sitting around my studio, an old Mac Pro, a mini-Mack, and and an iMac, but none of these are new. I work on a PC because they are faster, cheaper, and I can do all kinds of things with it by myself or locally.

Another question: Is ProRes RAW the holy grail or is another codec better in results, despite size? How does CinemaDNG compare to Apple ProRes RAW?
 
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ProRes RAW is very new and barely anyone uses it. ProRes is the holy grail as most ARRI camera productions use it (if not ARRIRAW), and REDCODE RAW is the holy grail on the other side within RED cameras. CinemaDNG has grown to be very popular over the last few years because of Blackmagic cameras, and now it's been available more recently from the Sonys and Panasonics that shoot RAW.

As far as "clearest resolution"...you have conflicting thoughts. You will not have the "clearest resolution" if you master in 2K, which is 2048x1080 (HD is 1920x1080).

4K in and 4K out...doesn't matter if it's CDNG or PR RAW. Both are highly capable. I just like CDNG better because of the flexibility it offers in Resolve with its RAW parameters.

---

You really need to try both and see which format is best for you.

And Macs are incredibly fast if you know what you're doing on them. I edit very highly processor-intensive footage on a MBP within FCPX via proxies.
 
NorBro said:
ProRes RAW is very new and barely anyone uses it. ProRes is the holy grail as most ARRI camera productions use it (if not ARRIRAW), and REDCODE RAW is the holy grail on the other side within RED cameras. CinemaDNG has grown to be very popular over the last few years because of Blackmagic cameras, and now it's been available more recently from the Sonys and Panasonics that shoot RAW.

As far as "clearest resolution"...you have conflicting thoughts. You will not have the "clearest resolution" if you master in 2K, which is 2048x1080 (HD is 1920x1080).

4K in and 4K out...doesn't matter if it's CDNG or PR RAW. Both are highly capable. I just like CDNG better because of the flexibility it offers in Resolve with its RAW parameters.

---

You really need to try both and see which format is best for you.

And Macs are incredibly fast if you know what you're doing on them. I edit very highly processor-intensive footage on a MBP within FCPX via proxies.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about Blackmagic. I have a Blackmagic Pocket Camera, which does ProRes, but it is too small and battery-poor to play with much, IMO.

I should look into BM Resolve. I use all the Adobe products, so that has been my workflow.

As usual, I have a LOT to learn.
 
The BMPCC shoots CDNG too...and offers a fantastic way to learn CDNG editing (smaller HD file sizes too).

No one uses the internal batteries for the camera. Third-party bricks via cable adapters are best, or USB power banks (if possible).
 
jc01108 said:
If you haven't done so already, take a look at http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/

Alister has done a nice job explaining the benefits of Prores raw with the FS5. His latest posting: WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF PRORES RAW WITH THE PXW-FS5? (dated July 27th - today).
Click to expand...

This video by Chapman is incredibly helpful. It covered everything I was wondering about. Taking it all in was overwhelming, so I created a PDF for all the graphics to remind me. I have written to Chapment for permission to post it and he says yes, I will post it here.
 
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