FS5: To be FS5 ready. The tale of the LONG GOP codec.

M

mattjeh

Well-known member
Hi all.
I have an FS5 on pre-order and am very much looking forward to having the camera. Hearing about the heavy processing required for the XAVC-L codec a few months ago I was kindly given some sample footage from an FS7 using the same codec. My imac ran it without any issue which let me to believe all was well and good.

However yesterday I realised I didn't conduct a thorough enough test, and attempted to run a multicam sequence using two clips as you would for any interview clips, concerts, wedding services etc that would have two feeds (using the same footage and punching in to make use of the 4k resolution in a HD timeline). To my horror of course my imac died a death and spluttered to an impressive 1 frame per second halt.

My imac is a late 2012, 3.2ghz i5, with 32gb ram and the nvidia card with 1gig memory. I have a friend with a beefier imac, the late 2013 model, 3.5ghz i7, with 32gb ram and the 4gb nvidia card. Even that couldn't handle the multiclip sequence.

Long story short, I need to be looking at investing in a mac pro.

I want to ask what experiences people have in using the XAVC L codec and what machine specs have people got to run multiclips without any issue? Specifically mac specs but I guess PC specs may help.

Any help or advice for this would be greatly appreciated.
 
Before you go throwing money at the problem may I suggest a change of workflow?

If you are using FCPX you can use the idiot proof proxy workflow and FCPX will create ProRes proxies during import or even when you've stepped away from the computer for a break. I have used this several times with media that my ageing 2010 Mac Pro found challenging. At the end of the edit you flick the switch back to original media and FCPX does all the reconnections and renders out the full quality files.

FCPX supports XAVC-L natively so I'm beginning to wonder if you're using Premiere Pro? In which case you might have to throw money at the problem....

What drives are you using to edit off? This could be the bottle neck.
 
I've been a long time FCP7 user, have honestly tried FCPX but hated it. Currently using Premiere pro which makes sense as After effects is also an important tool for me. I've been put off from using proxies in PP as my colleague has been talking about having a nightmare only yesterday with raw files and proxies and reconnecting resulting in the incorrect grading being applied. I realistically don't see me switching to FCPX though.

I'll be honest I haven't looked into proxies deeply enough. Being so used to working with HD and it just works, I just want that again.

I've been running everything from my internal 7200 drive. An SSD might make a difference but installing it would be a nightmare.
 
I would suggest an external TB RAID like a Promise RAID with 6 drives. Very fast and it will also be redundant L5 RAID with small loss of space. And it will transfer to your next system.
 
Your iMac has the i5 processor only and a low power graphic board. If you are sure to stick with PP I'd go for a PC and pick a graphic board which is optimized for Adobe. On the Mac side an iMac 5k with maximum power and graphics will fulfill your needs too.

(Hating something is emotional.
I fully understand hating Phil Collin's comeback announcement.
In terms of making your work easier hating a tool is not helpful)
 
Mattjeh

If I were you I'd get over my hate of FCPX and buy a couple of SSDs and put them in a thunderbolt enclose and you'll be good to go. Certainly editing off your system drive is a no-no unless you've got flash drives.

Premiere is simply not as well optimised as FCPX and even if your iMac still chokes on XAVC-L you have the option of peerless proxy and multicam workflows in FCPX. If you haven't tried FCPX in a while you might be pleasantly surprised. I think you can still download a trial which might be a good idea to test relative performance of fcpx and premiere pro. Though the bottleneck is likely your system drive.

The FS5 looks like an awesome camera and it would be a shame to ruin the experience battling with Adobe when you could be being productive. If you've got deep pockets and can afford a mac pro then why not? The new iMac 5K are pretty awesome too and worthy of consideration especially with the quality of screen they have for grading and they benchmark very well too up with the 6 core Mac Pro.
 
Heard only good things about FCPX and I am seriously considering moving from PP to it. FCPX+Color Finale and that will set me up. There's not even a comparison of XAVC speed on FCPX and PP (I gave it a trail, was impressed).
 
alohype said:
Heard only good things about FCPX and I am seriously considering moving from PP to it. FCPX+Color Finale and that will set me up. There's not even a comparison of XAVC speed on FCPX and PP (I gave it a trail, was impressed).
Click to expand...

If you combine FCPX+Color Finale with Core Melt's TrackX and SliceX you may never need to leave FCPX for grading. If, like me, you don't always have time to roundtrip to Resolve these extra plugins make tracking shape masks in FCPX a breeze. Highly recommended...
 
As a FCP veteran I cannot recommend switching to Premiere enough. The exodus happened years ago when Apple fell way behind on R3D support and other things. And as the OP said, having such great integration with AE and other programs really helps certain professionals.

As for solving the problem, have you lowered the playback resolution from full to 1/2 or 1/4 in the Program panel?

As for specs, I am using a PC that is effectively a gaming computer. i7 950, 24 GB of ram, GTX 760 graphics card. Been rock solid since I built it. Been editing Red and other footage the whole time.
 
Thanks mate! I'd love to stay in Resolve, but as you say: there's not always a time for it. And Resolve is much worse with performance. Good thing about Resolve is that generating proxy is pretty simple too ("optimised media"). The only big issue for me is lack of native AE support as in PP. Cannot think yet how to combat that. Go with Fusion maybe instead? But then, for motion graphics there's nothing comparable to AE...

Eh. Though choices.
 
fightclubtb said:
As a FCP veteran I cannot recommend switching to Premiere enough. The exodus happened years ago when Apple fell way behind on R3D support and other things. And as the OP said, having such great integration with AE and other programs really helps certain professionals.

As for solving the problem, have you lowered the playback resolution from full to 1/2 or 1/4 in the Program panel?

As for specs, I am using a PC that is effectively a gaming computer. i7 950, 24 GB of ram, GTX 760 graphics card. Been rock solid since I built it. Been editing Red and other footage the whole time.
Click to expand...

+1 to this I made the switch at the same time and never looked back.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I have lowered the resolution to 1/8 and it still can't handle it, it plays fine for a few seconds and then dies. I tried the FCPX trial a few months ago, based on the positive things said here I'll try to give it another go to test the performance.

The FS5 is a purchase to future proof me for the next 5+ years, it makes sense to have a machine that plays it without issue rather than having to manage new ssd's and proxies for the next 5 years. I'm torn of course, I don't want to upgrade from the imac as it's a lot of additional expense. But for the sake of my workflow for the same 5+ years, then I should.

Rock and a hard place.
 
My 2009 iMac Duo Core is so outdated that I HAVE to get a new one before my FS5 comes. I hope the files aren't as taxing as people make them out to be.
 
How about using divinci resolve to create a pro res proxy and bringing that into premiere?

That's what I'm planning doing with my workflow.
 
Nirv said:
If you combine FCPX+Color Finale with Core Melt's TrackX and SliceX you may never need to leave FCPX for grading. If, like me, you don't always have time to roundtrip to Resolve these extra plugins make tracking shape masks in FCPX a breeze. Highly recommended...
Click to expand...
+1 to this for sure. I had used FCP since version 2.0 and when FCP X came out
I switched to Premiere. Used it for awhile and it was actually good (CS6). Then along
comes CC and I am told I must pay monthly for the rest of my life to use Adobe software.
Not being very interested in that, I try FCP X again for the first time since it came
out.....and it is so much better that it's not even funny. It has improved a ton from
what it was when it came out. Just fast, best multicam feature in an NLE, and
a lot of the stuff, like skimming and the magnetic timeline, actually speed up your
workflow once you get used to them for 90% of the time (there is still that 10% of
the time that you have to figure out how to do something easier done in a track
based NLE though). Not gonna lie, it took a bit to get used to FCP X, but now
when I go in to edit for a couple clients, that have Premiere CC 15, I'm inwardly groaning.

Just realize, like Nirv said, you need to look at FCP X as 'the basics'
and expand on it....shore up the places it is 'weak' in, by getting plug ins.
The ones he mentions (Color Finale and Slice X/Track) are must haves.
I also highly recommend at least getting familiar with Motion. If you
are an AE user, learning Motion will be simple for you.
 
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soc said:
How about using divinci resolve to create a pro res proxy and bringing that into premiere?

That's what I'm planning doing with my workflow.
Click to expand...

Trying resolve was the trigger that made me realise my imac wasn't up to it, it wouldn't load any footage.
 
I haven't used XAVC-L, but XAVC Intra isn't entirely kind on systems either, despite it being an intra frame codec. I struggle to cut effectively in PP CC2015 on a maxed-out MBP Retina.

I think a ProRes proxy or a transcode to ProRes HQ may be your best bet. You can then archive your Long GOP originals, which will take up less storage space than ProRes. If you ever need them again, whip them out and transcode again. I used this workflow very happily for a couple of years with C100 AVCHD files.

Long GOP is efficient to record, but lousy to edit. I guess you can chuck money at faster processors to try and mitigate this, but a simple transcode using Apple Compressor or Sony Catalyst Browse would give you nicer (ProRes intra frame) files to play with.
 
mattjeh said:
Thanks for all the replies. I have lowered the resolution to 1/8 and it still can't handle it, it plays fine for a few seconds and then dies. I tried the FCPX trial a few months ago, based on the positive things said here I'll try to give it another go to test the performance.

The FS5 is a purchase to future proof me for the next 5+ years, it makes sense to have a machine that plays it without issue rather than having to manage new ssd's and proxies for the next 5 years. I'm torn of course, I don't want to upgrade from the imac as it's a lot of additional expense. But for the sake of my workflow for the same 5+ years, then I should.

Rock and a hard place.
Click to expand...

Here is a thought: as it is a long term 5yrs purchase, why not just use the FS5 as mainly a 1080 camera for the next year or two, then after that point you can pick up a new PC with lots of SSD space for pennies on the dollar compared to what they're going for now. Then for the next 3 or 4 years of ownership you can use it as a 4K camera. As I presume you don't have the demand to use it as a 4K camera *right now*, and besides I do see the FS5 as mainly a 1080 camera anyway (competing against the C100 mk2, also 1080 camera) with 4K only tacked on as an extra "bonus" when you absolutely must use 4K.
 
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