to all mac users : very important!

[Adam Forgione]

i am starting this post on all forums related. i am a loyal mac user for years and have always loved the system good and bad. i am starting to lose some faith with apples support with HD. the render and export times are beyond a joke, there is no hardware for sale that will allow us to get realistic render and export times (apple simply will not allow 3rd party companies to help) apple has not announced any plans for hd delivery for the exception of their outdated 720p apple tv. i was advised by a 3rd party company to start making some noise on apple's discussion forum and that it may help to light a fire under their butts. this is a copy of what i posted on apple's discussion forum. if you are concerned as i am, please make some noise on their forums as well.


posted on apples forum in (final cut pro) :
This is very concerning to my collegues and myself. i am and have been a huge fan of apple's video editing/delivery capabilities for over 10 years. I have recently started shooting in HD. i am desparately trying to figure out how to realistically deliver this incredible technology to my clients but apple seems to not have any answers yet. Just last night i attended a local video association meeting where matrox demonstarted the power of their hardware with PC or MAC. i must say i was very upset to see how amazing and effortless matrox hardware (inexpensive too, approx $1000-$1800) worked on PC. i almost did not want to believe it. multiple layer clips with multiple effects with motion text all in realtime no rendering at all. when i asked matrox what about us with mac (more than half the room is using mac) they simply said " we've been trying to do the same with apple but apple simply will not work with us to make it happen." so basically apple seems to be closing doors on companies that can help their loyal customers edit, export, encode, and deliver at much quicker, more profitable, and realistic way. my fully loaded MBP would take over 24 hours to export a 60 minute project in HD. thats a joke, right? once im done i cant even deliver it to my customer. HD has been here for years now, i dont understand the thought process. i can only imagine the industry will slowly convert back to PC soley because PC is giving them a solution. Apple users want to stay with apple, they really do, its just very hard to stay loyal when we see all this time spent on selling $200 iphones and fancy ipods to teenagers. Maybe posters like shane ross, jerry hofmann, david s, or patrick sheffield, or others can shed some light on this mystery. It would be so heplful to apple customers to know where they are going with this. are they going to supprt bluray? if not how do we store and shelf our much larger media (50 gigs, 100gigs, etc) just for storage alone bluray would be amazing. we cant keep buying hard drives and hoping they will work next year. if apple is going down the apple tv road, when will the support 1080i/p, there are already over 10 boxes just like apple tv that can do it. is apple really planning on getting serious with HD, i hope so but i reallly am starting to lose faith and look elsewhere. please anyone any thoughts, and knowledge on this topic?

 

[jedbarish]

I think they are going to introduce a new version by next show like NAB or before that. They introduced Snow Leopard with Quicktime X also recent updates to make it better compatibility with codecs. I just wanted to see FCP works like Edius in real time for different formats instead conversion on every format into MOV! I am using Raylight for P2 workflow which it speeds up pretty well.

I do believe that FCP is about to be overhaul very soon! Please make more noise to bring some attention to APPLE!

 

[Shane Ross]

Or....stop complaining and get the edit system that suits your needs. Complaining that one system doesn't do what another system does...and you REALLY want it to...doesn't help. You can yell and scream all you want that the Ford Mustang just doesn't handle as well as a Porche Boxter...it doesn't mean that Ford will change that. FCP is building on the strengths it has.

Avid, the most popular NLE in Hollywood for years, doesn't offer hardware acceleration. The fact that Matrox does isn't unique either. I hear that Edius also offers some form of hardware acceleration.

No one is forcing you into Apple and FCP. Buy what you want.

 

[Barry_Green]

Or....stop complaining and get the edit system that suits your needs.

No one is forcing you into Apple and FCP. Buy what you want.

Hear, hear. Well said, Shane. It's so much easier to use what works for you, than it is to try to force some company or other to change their offerings to suit your particular needs. There are many choices out there for a reason. Find the one that suits your purposes and use that one.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Or....stop complaining and get the edit system that suits your needs. Complaining that one system doesn't do what another system does...and you REALLY want it to...doesn't help. You can yell and scream all you want that the Ford Mustang just doesn't handle as well as a Porche Boxter...it doesn't mean that Ford will change that. FCP is building on the strengths it has.

Avid, the most popular NLE in Hollywood for years, doesn't offer hardware acceleration. The fact that Matrox does isn't unique either. I hear that Edius also offers some form of hardware acceleration.

No one is forcing you into Apple and FCP. Buy what you want.

QFTMFT.

 

[Spartacus]

Or....stop complaining and get the edit system that suits your needs. Complaining that one system doesn't do what another system does...and you REALLY want it to...doesn't help. You can yell and scream all you want that the Ford Mustang just doesn't handle as well as a Porche Boxter...it doesn't mean that Ford will change that. FCP is building on the strengths it has.

Avid, the most popular NLE in Hollywood for years, doesn't offer hardware acceleration. The fact that Matrox does isn't unique either. I hear that Edius also offers some form of hardware acceleration.

No one is forcing you into Apple and FCP. Buy what you want.

What´s wrong with customers and users, voicing their demands and expectations?

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

What´s wrong with customers and users, voicing their demands and expectations?

Because he is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Shane Ross]

Voice your demands and wants...there is a form for FEEDBACK at Apple:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

But if some other company already does all that you want, then why not simply go with that company?

 

[adkimery]

I have recently started shooting in HD. i am desparately trying to figure out how to realistically deliver this incredible technology to my clients but apple seems to not have any answers yet.

I've read about people getting along very well using Adobe Encore for their Blu-ray authoring needs.

when i asked matrox what about us with mac (more than half the room is using mac) they simply said " we've been trying to do the same with apple but apple simply will not work with us to make it happen."

In the past Matrox was not able to put out a quality Mac I/O card so be careful what you wish for. :tongue: I've run into a number of users that won't even consider the MXO or MXO 2 because they are still bitter towards Matrox for the RTMac cad.

my fully loaded MBP would take over 24 hours to export a 60 minute project in HD. thats a joke, right?

Laptops are designed for portability, not heavy lifting. Maybe a desktop would better suit your needs.

once im done i cant even deliver it to my customer. HD has been here for years now, i dont understand the thought process. i can only imagine the industry will slowly convert back to PC soley because PC is giving them a solution.

I don't think desktop HD authoring was viable until the HD format war ended a few months ago, but I am disappointed that Apple hasn't offered a Blu-ray authoring option yet especially considering how much they were on the forefront of DVD desktop authoring years ago. Why would people switch from Mac to PC when there are HD authoring solutions available for the Mac today? Switching your entire operation from Mac to PC just because Apple doesn't currently offer a Blu-ray authoring solution is a bit like tossing the baby out w/the bath water, no?

Apple users want to stay with apple, they really do, its just very hard to stay loyal when we see all this time spent on selling $200 iphones and fancy ipods to teenagers.

Why do you feel the need to stay loyal to a tool? I mean, my preferred platform is a Mac and my preferred NLE software is FCP, but Apple can't supply me w/every tool I need to do my job which is why I also have a variety of 3rd party software ranging from Photoshop, to Transmit (sweet FTP software), to MS Word, to random plugins, and even Avid. 3rd party software should be embraced because it expands our capabilities, not shunned because it didn't come from Apple.


-A

 

[Ming]

Voice your demands and wants...there is a form for FEEDBACK at Apple:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

But if some other company already does all that you want, then why not simply go with that company?

Depending on one's investment into an existing platform the "simplicity" of switching may be a question of financial viability. We're not talking about switching brands of fabric softener here, obviously and it costs time as well. Apple's Pro division presents itself as being shoved into some darkly lit back corner in a boiler room while the iSumer division is going crazy pumping out cheap chinese plastic gadgets to browse the internet, and people are getting pissy about it, no wonder.

:furious3:Good thread. All I've gotta say is Bootcamp FTW.

 

[David Saraceno]

Encore is not DVD SP. MainConcept is not Apple's Compressor app.

But as Shane and other say, if it don't work for you, use something else.

It's that simple.

If I could shoot with a pin hole camera and edit with a stack of flip cards better than FCP, that's where I would be.

The OP mentions HD. My guess is that the OP is working in HDV which is processor intensive on any platform.

No problem in voicing concerns, but do it to Apple, not here or at the Apple Discussions.

This is a troubleshooting board, last time I looked.

Rants about Apple probably should go in the cafe.

 

[ecking]

I hate when people use arguements like these. It only serves to invalidate your point and make you look silly.

Apple users want to stay with apple, they really do, its just very hard to stay loyal when we see all this time spent on selling $200 iphones and fancy ipods to teenagers.

I mean come on how are those things even related? They took all their fcp developers and forced them to make iphones instead?
While you're at it why don't you go: "Hey microsoft, stop wasting all your time on that damn xbox and make windows not suck!"

Listen, programs take time to develop and work on and that's what fcp team is doing, unfortunately apple may not be the first to the table on everything all time but things take time. Final Cut Studio is a hell of a lot of apps for the price and frankly they could all use some work, I met with some apple people 2 days ago when they demoed final cut server and I asked them plenty of questions and believe it or not they do hear us and they are working, improvements will come.

Do voice vaild opinions that will help but just spouting some real info along with bs doens't help you get heard, at all. Who's been delievering blu-ray for years? Tons of client have players? You want to archive to BDR? You can put a blu-ray drive in a mac pro and can use toast to burn bdr, so I suppose you can back up stuff to blu-ray discs. However pretending like everyone else can has been doing it for a long time isn't true, its reletively new stuff for everyone.

Like it's already been said if your clients really are asking for stuff and you really can't wait and will make money using something else, by all means use it.

 

[Adam Forgione]

Or....stop complaining and get the edit system that suits your needs. Complaining that one system doesn't do what another system does...and you REALLY want it to...doesn't help. You can yell and scream all you want that the Ford Mustang just doesn't handle as well as a Porche Boxter...it doesn't mean that Ford will change that. FCP is building on the strengths it has.

if no one speaks out they will lag as they are now!

Avid, the most popular NLE in Hollywood for years, doesn't offer hardware acceleration. The fact that Matrox does isn't unique either. I hear that Edius also offers some form of hardware acceleration.

the fact that apple doesnt give us acceleration nor will they let anyone help them is puzzling and concerning

No one is forcing you into Apple and FCP. Buy what you want.

if i hadnt invested 10 years of my professional life and 10's of thousands of dollars into the company i would agree with you, im not the only one screaming about the primitive performance of mac and "HD" rellated formats. we as mac users want them to come through for us, if really didnt like mac, i wouldnt waste my time posting this right now, id go buy a PC. if PC couldnt do it either than we would all accept it, but PC users are creative and productive (with HD related formats) when using the available tools/configurations while we (mac usres) are waiting for progress bars to render/export and being not so creative, isnt that what apple was about when they first launched? anyway i will continue to make noise until i am forced to find another solution. im not preaching PC is better than mac, im screaming for mac to get with the times because i know they can they just wont yet!

on another note for the respect of their loyal customers, apple, at least tell us what your plans are so that we spend our money and prepare properly. should we buy bluray drives and encore to deliver HD now to our HD asking customers or is apple going to decide 6 months from now no bluray after we spend thousands for the temporary bluray delivery fix, very disappointing to customers especially the ones who make a living off the systems, no one wants to re-learn and re-buy different NLE's

 

[Adam Forgione]

Hear, hear. Well said, Shane. It's so much easier to use what works for you, than it is to try to force some company or other to change their offerings to suit your particular needs. There are many choices out there for a reason. Find the one that suits your purposes and use that one.

once again, im not saying "buy PC's" im saying "apple get with the times, your loyal customers are waiting as we are watching PC's breeze through multilayered, moving text, slo-mo'd, color-corrected timlines in REALTIME."

 

[Adam Forgione]

Because he is comparing apples to oranges.

explain further, not understanding you.
can the fastest mac play an HDV timline with 2 color filters, slo mo, moving text title, and a super imposed green screen alpha channel layer in realtime. i saw the outdated 2 gig ram PC with a matrox card do it like cutting through butter and it pissed me off finally.

i want quick or realtime rendering and exporting, doesnt matter if its a PC (orange) or and mac (orange), it should be possible with both but its not

 

[David Jimerson]

once again, im not saying "buy PC's" im saying "apple get with the times, your loyal customers are waiting as we are watching PC's breeze through multilayered, moving text, slo-mo'd, color-corrected timlines in REALTIME."

OK. Then perhaps you should question your loyalty, as mentioned a few times above.

 

[Barry_Green]

once again, im not saying "buy PC's" im saying "apple get with the times, your loyal customers are waiting as we are watching PC's breeze through multilayered, moving text, slo-mo'd, color-corrected timlines in REALTIME."

Understood. But again, what's the point? Look, I've been yelling and screaming at apple for two years to implement proper MXF support for P2, the #1 tapeless media in the world. They do not care. They will not do it. They will not change. Look, Apple's too big for its britches, they've got you by the scrotum, and they do not care because (as near as I can tell) they seriously don't believe that you'll ever leave.

So what did I accomplish? Nothing. Now I advise people that if you want what another tool does, BUY THAT TOOL. THAT is the message that they will hear.

Reward the people who are giving you what you want. Punish those that aren't. That is how you bring about change in the marketplace.

 

[adkimery]

Part of the problem is that one company can't be all things to all people, Adam. You wan't better RT performance w/HDV, Barry wants better P2 support, I want better media management, others have a laundry list of complaints w/Color, etc.,. People who use Avid day in and day out b*tch about Avid. GFX guys I work w/b*tch about Adobe. These companies have millions of users w/millions of different complaints so obviously some people will feel shafted while others will feel like they are being listened to.

As others have said, voice your opinions directly to Apple and vote w/your wallet if you have to (obviously the rant here isn't quite going the way you wanted it to). I mean, if the hardware accelerated PCs would be that much of a boon to you then surely they'd pay for themselves rather quickly, right? If you need Blu-ray authoring now what's wrong w/going w/Adobe and making money now instead losing money by holding out for an Apple solution?

If you aren't willing to learn and invest in new types of software then you will be passed by others who adapter to newer technology. Lots of editors loved Media 100 and Discreet Edit* but those guys have pretty much either learned other NLEs or changed professions. The landscape is much different today than it was 10 years ago and I'm sure it will much different 10 years from now than it is today. If Apple stalls and I go to Avid or Premiere or Company X that's yet to release it's killer NLE of the future so be it. I care more about editing than I do the name on my editing tools.


-A

 

[vegas06]

Personally, all I want is the ability to be able to author and burn BLURAY in FCS2. I don't care about NERO, or ADOBE, I am only concerned with my current NLE of choice.
I know that Apple did give support for HD-DVD, they just backed the wrong HD horse is all.
I have no doubt that the next version of FCS will offer BLURAY support.

Personally, my clients aren't clamoring for HD and are very happy with 16:9 SD DVD down conversion. So I can wait.
I would just like the ability to offer HD delivery, in order to get the jump on my local competition.

 

[adkimery]

I would just like the ability to offer HD delivery, in order to get the jump on my local competition.

The ability to do that is out there now it's just not a first party, Apple solution. Why not go third party, start establishing yourself as the "Blu-ray dude" ahead of your competition instead of waiting indefinitely for Apple to update DVD SP?


-A