F5: Tips for shooting a feature with an F5 and a7S mk2 together in 4K?

[IronFilm]

About to start shooting a vampire comedy feature film with both the F5 and a7S mk2 together in 4K, the a7S mk2 is for the purpose of a smaller gimbal camera.

Any particular tips/suggestions I should be aware of beforehand?

For instance I am thinking it is probably best they both use slog2 rather than slog3? As the slog3 could be too much of a stretch for the a7S's 8bit codec. So use slog2 with the a7S and thus do the same with the F5 as well to help match it better.


So I see three core options:

1) F5 with slog3 + a7Sii with slog3 (both slog3)


2) F5 with slog2 + a7Sii with slog2 (both slog2)

3) F5 with slog3 + a7Sii with slog2 (a mix, which camera doing the slog version best suited for it)

​​​​​​​Which of these three is the best approach for a feature film?


Also, when I think ahead to when we get distribution (well.... hopefully!!), would they prefer 23.976fps or 24fps?

 

[abreu-canedo]

There are obviously many factors to consider in all of this.

The 10bit codecs of the F5 will handle Slog a lot better. The A7S, well, not as well. So shooting codecs, I would consider a few things:
1. If you are shooting controlled environments or scenes that do not exceed the 9 or 10 stops of DR, then shooting log might be a waste of bit depth. Specially with the A7s. Although shooting 4k will help a bit.
2. Consider doing some pre-pro tests with the F5 to figure out some preliminary looks for key scenes, then see if you can create a workflow for the A7s that matches it closely without having to use the 8bit log.
3. Slog3 is easier for most people to grade than Slog2.
4. Shoot 24p. 23.976 is a legacy format. I am assuming this project will go to DCP for festivals and potentially VOD over web. These platforms will be better served by 24p. Then, if you get a broadcast distribution, most broadcasters are well equipped to handle 24p whole frames. 23.976NTSC was more a thing for 60HZ refresh rates. It is being phazed out.

Of course, there is much more to consider in all of this, but test, test, test. Pre-pro is your best friend
-Best of luck!

 

[IronFilm]

Of course, there is much more to consider in all of this, but test, test, test. Pre-pro is your best friend
-Best of luck!

That would be a nice luxury! But the director just cast the leads yesterday, and is planning on shooting this weekend!! :-o

And I'm working the next three days, so don't have much time to spare! (is 3am here in NZ and I'm fretting over various details of this feature film, yet I need to be up at 8am to be a cam op for a doco, then next two days of Thursday/Friday I'm working on another feature, before going straight into this feature film on Friday night I'm DoP-ing. As a vampire film equals = night shoots! Even worse, I'm shooting something else during the day and then this in the night! Arrrghhh... the fun of ultra low budget filming! :-D :-D ha)


The main post production guy on our team also just left for India for a couple of weeks holiday to see family, and won't be back in New Zealand here with us until after we've finished the first mini-block of shooting, so even if I did have time to run tests, I wouldn't have him at hand to help.

I'll need your best of luck you wished me!

 

[abreu-canedo]

Ah, yes. I know what you mean.

Sure, we all need, luck. But I'm sure you also have drive and talent that will see you through.

Now, I don't mean to be discouraging, but, if I'm being completely honest, this might be the types of conditions that I would turn down, if I could afford to do so. But, that might mean I would also be turning down a learning and potentially great experience too...so yoiu never know. Trust your gut!

 

[IronFilm]

But, that might mean I would also be turning down a learning and potentially great experience too...so you never know. Trust your gut!

Exactly! But also the director is my friend, and I've been part of this project since 2014, so I could never do this to him and leave him in the lurch.

 

[Nirv]

Personally I'd not bother with any flavour of S Log with the A7s and shoot with a custom hyper gamma profile, getting full value for your 8 bits will be more useful to any colourist than SLog3 badly using 8 bits.

Night shoots, I use a custom HG7 profile on my FS7 when shooting at night, I find it a lot less noisy than shooting SLog and there's never the dynamic range in the shot to warrant Log at night generally speaking.

Burning a LUT for the F5 e.g. using HG7 gamma and LC709A gamut together for the night shoots is also an option but I favour Custom mode HG7 as with so much artificial light of all colours around at night I like to do spot WBs.

It's only Tues, plenty of time! Probably Wednesday where you are....

 

[stokstad]

DISCLAIMER: I have not matched these cameras myself.

Both the cameras can shoot the same gamma and gamut ie. Slog3 and Sgamut3.cine but the A7s (being 8bit) does not handle Slog3 very well.

It seems ( http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?342762-Consensus-on-Sony-A7SII-Picture-Profiles ) that many are happy with how Slog2 and Sgamut3.cine works on the A7s2.

So I would shoot both cameras in their best gamma (slog3 for F5 and slog2 for A7s2) and in the same gamut.
You can then make simple transforms with LUTcalc to go from these into rec709 or however you want to do it.

The general idea here is that as long as you shoot with the same gamut you should be able to get a decent starting point.

 

[morgan_moore]

Why A7s when you could have a 10bit black magic micro as your small camera or consider an Fs5, or consider the recording options with the Sony camera.

I would consider running some tests yourself personally.

S

 

[IronFilm]

Why A7s when you could have a 10bit black magic micro as your small camera or consider an Fs5, or consider the recording options with the Sony camera.

Extremely ultra limited budget is why.
I have been a big advocate of using my BMPCC for free as the gimbal camera.
But the director insists on 4K. So a7S mk2 it is.

 

[Ben Scott]

Read up on Nino Leitner's music promo for Those Goddamned Hippies which was FS7 and A7s on a gimbal. Should be a lot of stuff you can apply from his experience.

 

[morgan_moore]

Extremely ultra limited budget is why.
I have been a big advocate of using my BMPCC for free as the gimbal camera.
But the director insists on 4K. So a7S mk2 it is.

Well I take it you are the Director of Photography so direct the photography.

Obviously this is a bit of a communication wall you will have to climb - Id run some tests including upscaling the BMC to 4k and pointing to Bourne using the BM.

What camera would you actually want to use?

Also.. a feature is a serious thing warning lights might flash if you cant rent/buy(and sell) and FS5 or whatever (bargain) tool you need.

S

 

[abreu-canedo]

BTW, I have successfully operated the F5 on a Ronin with extended arms. If you use a fixed quick release mechanism you can go in and out of the gimbal without having to balance every time. But if you need mattebox, you need to mount batter off of camera...and you'll need an easy-rig or steadicam arm/vest for longer takes. But then again, you mentioned budget constrains, so...

 

[stokstad]

Ironfilm, from what I have seen you do before you seem like an excellent photographer and Im sure you will do a good job with these cameras and considering its a night shoot the F5 and A7s seems like good choices! If you cant shoot tests dont worry and shoot slog2/3 with sgamut3.cine on the a7s, it will be fine and match well with the F5.

 

[jasonbrooks]

Personally I'd not bother with any flavour of S Log with the A7s and shoot with a custom hyper gamma profile, getting full value for your 8 bits will be more useful to any colourist than SLog3 badly using 8 bits.
Night shoots, I use a custom HG7 profile on my FS7 when shooting at night, I find it a lot less noisy than shooting SLog and there's never the dynamic range in the shot to warrant Log at night generally speaking.

I'm with Nirv on this one. I think there's rather a lot of unconsidered log-worshipping by shooters everywhere. Just because it's a tool that allows spectacular results in certain circumstances (namely high-DR situations, where a smooth highlight rolloff is desired), it's considered to be the best for all, which it isn't, and certainly not in an 8-bit container.

I think you're probably best off using a matching hypergamma on both cameras, and being comfortable that your blacks (and if it's a primarily night-shoot, you'll be shooting A LOT of blacks), will be crispy inky dark, instead of chunky swirling noise-fests.

In any case, have fun, and try not to swallow too much of that pig's blood!

-jason

 

[IronFilm]

Well I take it you are the Director of Photography so direct the photography.

Obviously this is a bit of a communication wall you will have to climb - Id run some tests including upscaling the BMC to 4k and pointing to Bourne using the BM.

What camera would you actually want to use?

If it was up to me I'd probably shoot F5 (in 4K) with sometimes double camera with the F3 as B cam at once, and the BMPCC as the gimbal camera, with an aim of a 2K output.

But director wants 4K final (perhaps), and not much I can do really discussing against. I've tried already, but he has too much other stuff on his plate now to discuss this further. So 4K final it is!

Also.. a feature is a serious thing warning lights might flash if you cant rent/buy(and sell) and FS5 or whatever (bargain) tool you need

Indeed, normally I'd totally agree! But we're getting use of this F5 for almost kinda sort of "free" -ish, and it is not applicable to anything else, so I can't just swap it out for something else like 2x FS5 or whatever. Even if such an arrangement in the "real world" would be a similar (or less!) rental cost.

BTW, I have successfully operated the F5 on a Ronin with extended arms. If you use a fixed quick release mechanism you can go in and out of the gimbal without having to balance every time. But if you need mattebox, you need to mount batter off of camera...and you'll need an easy-rig or steadicam arm/vest for longer takes. But then again, you mentioned budget constrains, so...

Yeah, wish I could source a Ronin ultra cheap. I thought I had a friend who had one I could borrow, but his is just the Ronin M (not even the Ronin MX), so that is no good with a F5.

Thus we'll be using the director's CAME-TV 7800 with the a7Smk2

In any case, have fun, and try not to swallow too much of that pig's blood!

hahaha! Well... (without giving away too much of the story yet), the Vampire's teeth are rotting, so I think we'll have less blood in this movie than normal for a vampire film!

Ironfilm, from what I have seen you do before you seem like an excellent photographer and Im sure you will do a good job with these cameras and considering its a night shoot the F5 and A7s seems like good choices!

Thank you stokstad! That is very flattering Although I still see my self as barely a baby cinematographer, still got a loooooong way to grow!

Do we know each other on FB or by another username? (I'm terrible with names!)