Andrew Stone
Veteran
Bongo ties are great. Even a twist tie does the job especially if you are trying to stabilize a camera package for steadicam or motorized gimbal.
Ties are Stupid
- Thread starter jcs
- Start date
Right on- form follows function!
Once one understands the symbolism of a neck tie (and suit), one won't likely be motivated to wear either ever again (if they ever were).
Then the fun begins- look at the symbolism in everything and see what you can learn! Quite the eye opener :shocked:
I agree that there's a lot of symbolism in it, but to be fair, suit and tie takes on a very different level depending on the wearer and context.
In my experience it often means something very different in a place like Beverly Hills even versus next door in Century City. Plenty of people there choose to wear suits and ties for professional reasons and are handsomely compensated for it. I wouldn't call them puppets, I'd call them shrewd business people!
Everyone is different. I've made far more money not wearing a suit.
I first observed this pattern in high school. I was never interested in being popular, just did my own thing. Then when I made the football team and had to wear my jersey during the school day, all of a sudden I was popular. Later it was amusing to see how people magically treated me differently when in a suit and/or H. Lorenzo level jacket and pants. I'm the same person; these things are masks and symbols: fakery. Money does not equal wealth. True wealth is freedom. Suits and especially ties are the opposite- in form, function, and symbology.
A similar pattern with cars- people go into massive debt to drive a BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche. For what? They think it will help their image, their business. The Bentley/Lambo/McClaren/Ferrari/Rolls/Bugatti folks are on another level (and not wearing ties & suits typically, at least not in Beverly Hills or Miami/SouthBeach!). I worked for a billionaire on Rodeo drive- he wears jeans, sneakers, t-shirt- never a suite & tie! Same pattern with a NYC/East coast guy at that level I worked with- leather jacket and jeans- never ever wore a tie and suit! Go hang out at the Montage or Regent Beverly Wilshire etc. How many of the ultras are wearing a suite & tie? Sure for some dinners/events they probably do (suit up), but not for work. Anyone working a 9-5 job, no matter how much money they think they have, is not an ultra. Drones.
Look at business in general. At the top level they don't wear suits, except when interfacing with their puppets- "do like us and you'll be like us someday". It's a trick. Why are suits required in certain businesses, in court (lawyers), and why do (male) politicians all wear suits? What's the real reason? Nobody seems to be asking the question. Think outside the box, think about the symbolism. Start with the tie.
A lot of people here figured this out intuitively- ties are stupid, so are suits, I'll pick a career path to avoid the stupidity. Now when thinking about the symbology it makes deeper sense, which opens one's mind to start looking at other symbols, what they really mean, and how that affects ones & others thoughts and society at large.
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
I am a big fan of suits. I read a book called "a thinking man's guide to style" one time, and he convinced me that dressing well was a good decision. He convinced me for two reasons.
1) Clothes are psychological armor.
2) Dressing well shows respect for your surroundings.
I used to think of dressing well as a way to show off that you're better than other people, but that's not what it is. It shows respect for the people around you. If you attend a wedding, funeral, if you go to meet your girlfriend's parents--all of these situations are great ways to show respect to the people in your life.
I've been shooting weddings for 12 years. I always used to wear all-black dress clothes, but in the past years I've upgraded to suits, so I'm dressed in the same attire as the guests. It's made me feel much better about being "beneath" everyone, and I just look and feel better. People respect me more, and I get more jobs.
1) Clothes are psychological armor.
2) Dressing well shows respect for your surroundings.
I used to think of dressing well as a way to show off that you're better than other people, but that's not what it is. It shows respect for the people around you. If you attend a wedding, funeral, if you go to meet your girlfriend's parents--all of these situations are great ways to show respect to the people in your life.
I've been shooting weddings for 12 years. I always used to wear all-black dress clothes, but in the past years I've upgraded to suits, so I'm dressed in the same attire as the guests. It's made me feel much better about being "beneath" everyone, and I just look and feel better. People respect me more, and I get more jobs.
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Josh Bass, you are on a roll. Love those funny comments!
I never had a problem with ties. I don't necessarily like them but they don't bother me, either. I used to dress up more for shooting weddings (jacket/slacks/no tie) but it's just so darn hot working that I quit and just wear black or whatever color helps me not stand out.
In commercial and corporate, I bought gold polo shirts with logos to go along with my business colors and vehicle and we wear slacks. I both shoot and meet in that "uniform." Not as fancy as suit and tie but we look put together and professional and hopefully are memorable as the guys with the gold van and gold uniforms
In my media ministry work I wear jacket and slacks but hardly ever a tie. As Drew earlier pointed out, you don't want to give anyone the false impression that you think you are better than they are, but you do want to be respectable and if I dressed rough I think the latter would be the case.
I never had a problem with ties. I don't necessarily like them but they don't bother me, either. I used to dress up more for shooting weddings (jacket/slacks/no tie) but it's just so darn hot working that I quit and just wear black or whatever color helps me not stand out.
In commercial and corporate, I bought gold polo shirts with logos to go along with my business colors and vehicle and we wear slacks. I both shoot and meet in that "uniform." Not as fancy as suit and tie but we look put together and professional and hopefully are memorable as the guys with the gold van and gold uniforms
In my media ministry work I wear jacket and slacks but hardly ever a tie. As Drew earlier pointed out, you don't want to give anyone the false impression that you think you are better than they are, but you do want to be respectable and if I dressed rough I think the latter would be the case.
The original post about ties was kind of a random realization after seeing pictures of politicians in a room all in suits and ties. Then starting to think about the symbolism, along with form follows function and deeper understanding became apparent.
When shooting events I wear nice black clothing (e.g. John Varvatos) and shoes and do my best to be invisible. An invisible light (infrared?) flash would be an awesome invention if the end result could be natural. Sometimes shooting at F1.4 and high ISO still isn't enough (to get a good look with depth & shape)). The best shots IMO are not posed, with subjects acting naturally.
In terms of showing respect, a nice jacket, shirt, pants, and shoes does the trick. Does not have to be a suit and/or tie! Think outside the box- where is it written? (for weddings etc.). In business and law (and some high-end dining establishments/clubs), the dress code is sometimes written, however ask your self "why?". It's completely arbitrary and exclusive/divisive, and once you understand the symbology, it's not appealing at all.
Only in certain western cultures are suits part of the brain-washing operation. Traditional Indian wedding:
No ties! No suits!
One can still show respect with nice clothing, without the symbology of the suit and tie, with more creativity, individuality, and practical form follows function! (no need to melt in the office or when on a shoot (when properly fitted (slim cut)- a suit can be very restrictive for motion (part of the symbology: restriction, conformity, and the is a leash & collar (slave))))
When shooting events I wear nice black clothing (e.g. John Varvatos) and shoes and do my best to be invisible. An invisible light (infrared?) flash would be an awesome invention if the end result could be natural. Sometimes shooting at F1.4 and high ISO still isn't enough (to get a good look with depth & shape)). The best shots IMO are not posed, with subjects acting naturally.
In terms of showing respect, a nice jacket, shirt, pants, and shoes does the trick. Does not have to be a suit and/or tie! Think outside the box- where is it written? (for weddings etc.). In business and law (and some high-end dining establishments/clubs), the dress code is sometimes written, however ask your self "why?". It's completely arbitrary and exclusive/divisive, and once you understand the symbology, it's not appealing at all.
Only in certain western cultures are suits part of the brain-washing operation. Traditional Indian wedding:
No ties! No suits!
One can still show respect with nice clothing, without the symbology of the suit and tie, with more creativity, individuality, and practical form follows function! (no need to melt in the office or when on a shoot (when properly fitted (slim cut)- a suit can be very restrictive for motion (part of the symbology: restriction, conformity, and the is a leash & collar (slave))))
Isnt a nice jacket and nice pants a suit? Or is it only a suit if it matches? My neighbors told me to stop stealing their GQ subscription at the same time when they told me stop peeping through their windows so I’m not current on this stuff.
But seriously folks...I will wear the most comfortable thing I’m allowed at any gig. What we do is often already stressful enough without adding itchiness, sweatiness and constricted movement into the mix.
But seriously folks...I will wear the most comfortable thing I’m allowed at any gig. What we do is often already stressful enough without adding itchiness, sweatiness and constricted movement into the mix.
Suit https://www.google.com/search?q=suit&source=lnms&tbm=isch - similar design, with collar, tie, slacks: typically plain, "stuffy" designs which constrain motion and make one hot (unless air is cool/cold).
Compare to sport coats and blazers, which can look similar to suit coats and vary with much more diversity and creativity with style and color. Can still help hide those 'out of shape' issues when marketing oneself
(get the joke; we can dress nice and not wear a suit and tie)
Mitch Gross
Veteran
When my brother started at a law office close to 30 years ago, he showed up on the first day in a nice blazer, tie and slacks he'd just purchased. He was told to get a proper suit and sent home.
As much as I do think ties are stupid I do understand their symbolism. In fact, I used to wear a tie quite often. While shooting. In my early days in the NY indie film scene of the late 80s and into the 90s, I was often DPing on features where I was by far the most experienced person on set. I wasn't always the oldest, in fact far from it. But I was often staffed by a bunch of eager film students and general enthusiasts who didn't know a c-stand from a sandbag but were trying to help. I decided on my first feature to wear a tie. I would wear the same one every day on set and only for that one movie. I told everyone that it was an homage to the photos I saw in books from film sets from the 40s where the crew (all dudes of course) were wearing ties. Must have been tough in the California heat with those huge tungsten and arc lights spitting out flames. I would tell people that the ties were my keepsakes, that I was building a collection of them as memories of the feature films I had DPed.
That was a lie. It was to give me authority on set. Who looks like the guy who knows what he's doing on set? The guy by the camera wearing a tie. When a bunch of novice crew is bumbling about and need to know who is in charge, who do you think they'll remember? Wearing a tie was a directed, conscious choice of mine, even though I hate them and theink they're stupid.
As much as I do think ties are stupid I do understand their symbolism. In fact, I used to wear a tie quite often. While shooting. In my early days in the NY indie film scene of the late 80s and into the 90s, I was often DPing on features where I was by far the most experienced person on set. I wasn't always the oldest, in fact far from it. But I was often staffed by a bunch of eager film students and general enthusiasts who didn't know a c-stand from a sandbag but were trying to help. I decided on my first feature to wear a tie. I would wear the same one every day on set and only for that one movie. I told everyone that it was an homage to the photos I saw in books from film sets from the 40s where the crew (all dudes of course) were wearing ties. Must have been tough in the California heat with those huge tungsten and arc lights spitting out flames. I would tell people that the ties were my keepsakes, that I was building a collection of them as memories of the feature films I had DPed.
That was a lie. It was to give me authority on set. Who looks like the guy who knows what he's doing on set? The guy by the camera wearing a tie. When a bunch of novice crew is bumbling about and need to know who is in charge, who do you think they'll remember? Wearing a tie was a directed, conscious choice of mine, even though I hate them and theink they're stupid.
Sure, the monkey suit is common in business and law, isn't the baseball cap or hat for the guy in charge on set?
Or was it the t-shirt?
A bow tie at least wouldn't get caught in gears or moving equipment if one was required to wear a tie on set (not very alpha though).
How about perhaps the most bossy job one could have while on the job leading novices?
Maybe it's the hat?
One can lead without a suit and tie- people know a strong leader by their energy, voice, and actions.
Or was it the t-shirt?
A bow tie at least wouldn't get caught in gears or moving equipment if one was required to wear a tie on set (not very alpha though).
How about perhaps the most bossy job one could have while on the job leading novices?
Maybe it's the hat?
One can lead without a suit and tie- people know a strong leader by their energy, voice, and actions.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
Josh, didn't you just find out that slacks and khakis weren't the same thing?
We're going to send you to sartorial school, so you at least know exactly what you're railing against! :grin:
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I'm only seeing suits in that picture.
I consider it a perfect proof of concept: the foreigner blending in, showing participation, appreciation and respect.
Now imagine the guy wearing jeans and a hoodie. Startling? I think so.
But seeing the recurring theme in your posts where you describe these people as puppets, drones or monkeys—I'm not so sure it's the clothing you have the actual issues with.
filmguy123
Veteran
So in one bucket, there's the CONCEPT of Uniform, Dress Code, "Dressing Well", "Dressing Professionally," and "Dressing Respectfully", etc.
In another bucket, there is the SPECIFIC THING - the actual, concrete physical item of the "THE TIE."
With the former (the concept), I am all in.
With the later, "The Tie", I agree with the thread title: Ties are stupid.
In another bucket, there is the SPECIFIC THING - the actual, concrete physical item of the "THE TIE."
With the former (the concept), I am all in.
With the later, "The Tie", I agree with the thread title: Ties are stupid.
You're right- how do we wake the people wearing suits and ties to the symbolism of those behind said symbolism pulling the strings in the shadows? Many aren't aware they are being manipulated- some get upset when the manipulation is brought to light (e.g. cognitive dissonance). A friend who works in Hollywood sent this to me: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?363727-IN-SHADOW-A-Modern-Odyssey-Animated-Short-Film , which was surprising as they aren't normally into that subject matter at all. It's very difficult material, however it illustrates the symbolism of what's going on very clearly. Many people can't make it past half way (the ending is worth it if you can make it (13min long)! Back on topic- note how often suits and ties are shown!
What is the symbolism of the Indian clothing vs. suits and ties? Did anyone in this thread suggest being disrespectful or unkind by wearing jeans and a hoodie to a formal event? What if a kid who couldn't afford nice clothing showed up to a formal event in jeans and a hoodie? Do we give them grief because they are poor? Are people too uptight sometimes? Is laughing at people who take themselves too seriously disrespectful?
When we look more deeply at life, most things that upset people are really about nothing.Yeah, dressing well is cool- the point being that we can be creative and wear nice/respectful clothing that isn't specifically a suit (which projects the embedded symbolism). Being forced to wear a suit (as noted earlier in the law firm example) hopefully raises awareness about what is really going on (and it's not about being respectful or not). Check out the IN-SHADOW short film to get a better understanding of this point if it doesn't make sense to you.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
Needless to say, I have nothing against your opinion—you own that.
But I do feel you are pushing your own opinion/interpretation as fact here. I have no disturbing associations with suits or ties on my part.
Do you mean what the parallels are or what the connection is? It's all about dress code to me. Some of the reasons you already mention: respect and participation. The dress code isn't the same for an Indian wedding as it is for a customer facing bank job position. But the expected behaviour is the same: like the man with the Indian women—show respect/understanding.
Since I mentioned jeans and hoodie, I feel this is directed at me. But I was the one who brought up some of the benefits of formal attire for people who don't have much money.
Are people too uptight sometimes? Is laughing at people who take themselves too seriously disrespectful?
Is this directed at me?