Thoughts on small recorder for FX recording

[Noiz2]

This is not one of those I want the best under $100 recorder posts.

I'm looking for a small portable recorder for FX recording. I have a bigger kit but I'm going to be limited to something I can toss in my laptop bag for this trip.

I have a Zoom h2 and... That is why I'm looking for something to do well what I got it for awhile back.

My prime candidates are the Tascam DR-100 mkII and the Tascam DR-40.

I had seen the 40 for around $130 and probably should have bought it because now I'm not finding anything under $180. For about $100 more I can get the 100 which looks like a better over all recorder and something I could use as a back up for my main rig if the Marantz keels over at a bad time.

Any one have any thoughts on the topic?

I'm not looking for the cheapest. I want something that works well with it's internal mics, ideally is not a handling noise monster (the h2 is useless if it's not mounted on something stationary). Decent level controls fairly quiet (though I'm not going to be doing anything super quiet with this, decently durable (another Zoom failing).

Being able to plug in XLR's is a plus. Decent limiter is a plus (but if I'm in need I can slap the MixPre infront so not a big deal).

I won't be doing production dialog.

I've loked around but these are the ones that seem to be getting the best reports, but I'm open to anything small portable under $500 or so.

 

[Alex H.]

I haven't used a single hand-held recorder, running the on-board mics, that wasn't susceptible to some handling noise. The Zoom H2, though, is certainly one of the worst.

I keep a DR-40 in my kit, with RedHead furry screen, for exactly this purpose and it's been great. It cen get handling noise, but a well-padded glove helps. The advantages you get with the DR100mkII are the rotary level control and the digital in. Other than that, there's not much it can do that the other cannot.

I'd go with the DR-40. B&H has them right now for $144. That may change, but that's the price listed at the time of this post.

It's too bad the Sony PCM-D1 has been discontinued, though... that thing was an absolute beast with great control and analog VU meters. Of course, all that for the bargain price of around $2k...

 

[Noiz2]

Thanks Alex. The h2 is OK for somethings and I have certainly used it. But for instance I tried recording in a car, just grabbing some car int BG. There was no way to keep it from overloading. Movement and low end harmonics just killed it. Just sitting it on a table to grab some ambience has worked well enough. My main goal is to do some train recordings on a three day Amtrack trip so I know the h2 will just crap out in that situation.

I'll check out B&H.

 

[Noiz2]

BTW, The other diference I have seen reported is that the D-40 doesn't do well with low power external mics, so using a dynamic isn't a great choice. The D-100 mkII supposedly has beefier preamps and does better with dynamic mics.

This is not an issue for me but might be for some others reading this.

The other difference that is of interest to me is that from what I have read the d-40 gets better recording time than the d-100. A possible negative is that there is no dedicated power connector on the d-40 so you have to power it via the USB. Again for me that should not be an issue. I don't want an external power connected and longer batt time is a big plus.

 

[Alex H.]

Interesting. I was under the impression that the pre-amps in the DR-40 were the same ones used in the DR-100mkII. I'll have to hook a dynamic up to mine tonight and see what happens.

However, most of the recorders in this category have pre-amps that cannot boost lower-output mics so well (such as the challenge with mics like the NTG-1/2).

 

[nolken]

I had seen the 40 for around $130 and probably should have bought it because now I'm not finding anything under $180. For about $100 more I can get the 100 which looks like a better over all recorder and something I could use as a back up for my main rig if the Marantz keels over at a bad time.

I actually bought the dr-40 when it first came out. I was impressed with it but I sold it anyways to get something different. Now I'm looking to re-buy. I saw it on Amazon for $112 the other day. I've kicked myself every day since for not picking it up.

I'm not looking for the cheapest. I want something that works well with it's internal mics, ideally is not a handling noise monster (the h2 is useless if it's not mounted on something stationary). Decent level controls fairly quiet (though I'm not going to be doing anything super quiet with this, decently durable (another Zoom failing).

I think the dr-40 did very well with handling noise. I mean you can't use the buttons or anything but that is just common sense. I didn't have any complaints with the pre-amp for the cost, especially sense you aren't recording anything real quiet.

for instance I tried recording in a car, just grabbing some car int BG. There was no way to keep it from overloading. Movement and low end harmonics just killed it.

the dr-40 did pick up a little more low end harmonics than i would have liked, but I can't compare it to an h2

The other difference that is of interest to me is that from what I have read the d-40 gets better recording time than the d-100. A possible negative is that there is no dedicated power connector on the d-40 so you have to power it via the USB. Again for me that should not be an issue. I don't want an external power connected and longer batt time is a big plus.

I always used eneloop batteries in mine, and phantom power sucked the life out of the freshly charged batteries in about 2 hours of use. it runs for quite a lot longer without phantom, so i usually used the at897 since it can run off a single AA battery that lasts much longer.

Interesting. I was under the impression that the pre-amps in the DR-40 were the same ones used in the DR-100mkII. I'll have to hook a dynamic up to mine tonight and see what happens.

i never actually plugged a dynamic into it now that i'm thinking about it, but i heard the same thing about the pre-amps in the dr-40 being the same as the dr-100mkii

The biggest advantage I found the dr-100 having over the dr-40 is that the dr-100 has a separate line out and headphone jack, and the build quality is superior. I honestly hated the build quality of the dr-40. that is the main reason i sold it. it feels really cheap and i was worried that every time i replaced the batteries i would break something. but i liked it enough to want to buy another one so i guess that speaks for itself.

 

[Noiz2]

Thanks guys.

When I had a great price on a DR-100mkII I was very much leaning that way. With the differential being twice the price now I did a bunch more research today.

The build seems to heavily favor the DR100, but I'm not that rough on equipment. Sound of built in mics favors the DR40. The "quality" seems to be about the same (though nobody seems to like the DR100 omni's) but the DR100's are fixed and the DR40's are adjustable.

For external mics the balance is for the DR100. The preamp supposedly can handel a wider range of mics with out stressing out.
They both have mic ins and real line ins.

The dual battery on the 100 is nice but you have to jump through hoops to swap the AA's with out it shutting down (unless that has been fixed with a software update?). The 40 seems to have longer rec time out of the box, though that may switch with Phantom, and certainly switches if you do the moves so you can switch the AA's with out stopping. You have to use the menue to switch to the internal swap the AA's and then switch back to the AA's.

The 100 can be externally powered and the 40 can IF you "fool it". You have to start recording THEN hook up the USB power. Not a great workaround. -- This has aperently been fixed with firmware and you can power it from USB easily.

The 100 with the separate line and headphone out gets a point.
Volume knobs get a point (but for me not so much since I will be using the big recorder where I would really want to be able to smoothly adjust level).

The 100 has more switches and les menu's, a plus but mostly if it's your primary recorder.

100 has a digital in. Again a plus more for those who use it as their main recorder.

There is probably more. I kind of like the 100, but realistically most of that is features I will likely not use since I won't be using it as my main recorder.

And I have to give a plug to Tascam here. One thing that is a big PLUS in profesional use is firmware updates that are user installable.

I really like my Marantz PMD671, BUT updates are a send it back to the shop deal, and that is a really big FAIL.

It works really well for what I do and I like it a lot, but it is my second one. The first had an old firmware and the store I bought it from (second endorsement: BUY from a store that you can count on to stand behind you! If there were a store in Detroit I would by buying FROM them. The place I bought it from (sadly now RIP (Leo's Pro Audio in Oakland CA)) let me keep using/testing it till they replaced their stock with ones with updated firmware and then) swapped out for a new model.

Tascam seems to actually listen to profesional users and make asked for upgrades and then makes them user installable.

This is not actually new with them. They have a very good history with fixing problems in a profesional way.

I have used and liked an Olympus recorder, but only mini ins and kind of convoluted menu system.

Think I'm pulling the trigger on the 40.

 

[nolken]

I think you'll be happy with it.

One more plug for Tascam is their customer service is great. Never had to return anything for service but their tech support is excellent.

 

[Jema]

If you want XLR inputs, then the DR100mkII, or the DR-40 if you want it cheap. If you don't need XLR's, then the sony D50 has among the better, quieter internals (and is adjustable between 90 degrees XY, and 120 degrees with just a little phase separation).

 

[Noiz2]

Should be in my sweaty little paws on Fri.

 

[nolken]

let us know your thoughts are on it. As mentioned I probably going to be re-buying it but would like to see how you compare it the h2.

 

[Alex H.]

I should mention that I have an H2 (original, not the "n"). I got it for my office several years ago, and it is right at home using it for our primary purpose: recording board meetings for transcription. It sure is a massive leap above micro-cassette.

The mics sound okay, but aren't the best. Scott has already mentioned the easily-over-modulated low end. I also find the overall sound to be a little thin. The noted handling noise issue is terrible on this recorder. I also find the "surround" mode, using both built-in pairs of mic elements for 4-channel recording, to be kind of gimmicky, though again for transcriptions using the 4-element, 2-channel recording mode gets everyone around the table. Outside of that, the 4-channel mode just hasn't popped up as something useful. Surround is built in post anyway, so it doesn't make sense to use it for FX recording at all.

I'd get a RedHead for the DR-40 sooner rather than later, though I have found that this isn't impervious to wind noise (recording a passing train got some rumble), so it may be helpful to find a thin foam layer to go inside it for higher-wind situations.

 

[Noiz2]

I did order a fuzzy with the DR40.

I have used the h2 for grabbing ambience in bars and sticking in a room during Thanksgiving to capture the general AMB.

Mine is also a pre "n" version also.

Better than my old MiniDisk but...

 

[kwkeirstead]

I have a Tascam DR-100 mkII but I cannot tell you how good it is.

I used it once, it fell off a stage, the mic cover and small plastic mic holder broke - this was Aug 1, 2012 and just this week, I FINALLY received the parts.

If you live in Canada please know that Teac will not ship to Canada, otherwise I would not be voicing any complaint but, try to get parts up here and, well, 6 months is way toooo long to have to wait for $10 worth of small parts.

UPDATE: My local rep now can get parts direct from the USA, so anyone needing repairs can contact me and I will give you their name.

 

[Jema]

Noiz, as you are experienced in recording and editing sfx, please be good to give us some feedback on it after some use and how the internals work for you. I've always found the approach to a small kit for fx to be very tricky if you want somewhat good quality.

On one hand you have a handheld with internals, a very small all-in-one solution, but that might lack flexibility and the internal mics are often a little noisy.

There's small pip external mics which would add very little to the bulk and size and give more flexibility, but it's now a bit more fiddly to set up and use the mics. It's also unclear to me wether this is a big upgrade in sound quality and noise (and how much such an upgrade would cost). Is it possible to compare say, the D50 using internals, to a cheaper handheld with the cost difference spent on pip mics?

Then there's the handhelds with XLR inputs, so you can use high quality condensers. This would add bulk, especially adding shockmount and wind protection, and give less battery life, but the mics can be of very good quality (and many of us already have good condensers lying around). It's unsure though if the preamps are good enough to actually take advantage of this compared to the other choices.

Lastly, there's using an external battery box or preamp to give phantom power to external mics, feeding it to the recorder. This is probably the best choice in quality, but is a three-piece kit and has higher cost. The bulk is now beginning to be too big for anyone to want to carry it around on a regular basis (which is in my opinion the reason for this kind of kit if we are out looking for things to record, we can use bigger and better stuff).

 

[John Willett]

Of the two the DR-100-II is definitely the best option.

It is also one of the only two pocket recorders on the market that has a digital input and can be used as a "bit bucket" back-up.

If you don't need the "bit bucket" option, then the Olympus LS-100 is a great option or the Nagra SD for high quality (the new Nagra LINO is also a good option at a lower price).

 

[Noiz2]

John,
Interesting options. The DR-40 is in transit so unless it has problems that is what I'm going with.

The Nagra is a bit out of the price range (at about $1,000) and Nagra's are relatively hard to get serviced in the US. We had a place in Oakland, CA but alas RIP. So the closest is in Georgia I believe. Maybe LA, or NYC since I'm mostly in Detroit these days. But the Nagra also only has 1/8" mini plug ins, so it's not really able to double as a backup for the main rig.
I'm sure it sounds great though.

The Olympus, was off the table because of the proprietary battery. For off in the wild field recordings (the main reason for me buying a small handheld unit) you need to be able to carry spares. You can get extra batteries (at $45 a pop) and then rig up some way to charge them (Olympus doesn't sell a charger) but that starts to get away from what I want in this recorder. We had an Olympus some years back and other than it only really being useable with it's internal mics it was a very nice box. Sounded good solid build etc.

Jema,

I'm not using this as a main rig. The trip I'm getting it for is a three day train trip after a month on the road. Because of US travel weirdness I'm limited to two pieces of cary-on luggage for all equipment, cloths etc. If that were not the case I would just bring the main rig probably. Though small and desecrate may also come in handy.

I'm also bringing a Creative Vado HD I picked up a few years ago for hoots and hollers (talk about your light weight film kit!

After I get back, if it works OK, my main use will be field recordings in places I don't feel comfortable carrying a few grand around on my shoulder, stealing ambiences where a full kit would stand out like a sore thumb, and running out to grab some of the great thunderstorms we get here. The get ready time on the main rig makes those spur of the moment recordings quite problematic. And I will toss it in the bag as a backup for the main recorder.

Of the two the DR-100-II is definitely the best option.

It is also one of the only two pocket recorders on the market that has a digital input and can be used as a "bit bucket" back-up.

If you don't need the "bit bucket" option, then the Olympus LS-100 is a great option or the Nagra SD for high quality (the new Nagra LINO is also a good option at a lower price).

 

[Noiz2]

...
If you live in Canada please know that Teac will not ship to Canada, otherwise I would not be voicing any complaint but, try to get parts up here and, well, 6 months is way toooo long to have to wait for $10 worth of small parts.

Being in Detroit I'm actually just north of Canada ;~), but still in the US. Weird that they don't ship to Canada????

I had a similar situation many years ago with a SAAB I owned. I needed a part and they had it shipped from Sweden. That three week wait would have been OK but that SAAB used a FORD engine and the part when it finally arrived had been shipped from FORD US to Sweden and then back to the US! If I could have gotten the FORD part number I could have walked to the dealer and goten the part the same day. And it was only a $7 part.

 

[Jema]

Jema,

I'm not using this as a main rig. The trip I'm getting it for is a three day train trip after a month on the road. Because of US travel weirdness I'm limited to two pieces of cary-on luggage for all equipment, cloths etc. If that were not the case I would just bring the main rig probably. Though small and desecrate may also come in handy.

I understand that you have access to much better rigs, and for high quality recordings I would bring out a bigger kit too. What I'm trying to get my head around is the choices available for a very portable system, something you can carry around in your jacket or bag all the time just in case you stumble across something interesting. For this use, I don't think it's worth spending all to much money (otherwise it's not that hard, like the nagra line of small recorders or the zaxcom TRX742), but you still want good results of course.

Right now I simply use an Olympus LS-5 with the internal mics. It's very small and ergonomic, but the mics - while sounding ok - are too noisy for many atmospheres. I'm looking at getting some external pip mics, but then I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to just sell it and get a recorder with XLR inputs and one or two SDC's... I don't know, maybe it just gets too complicated for the intended use.

Anyway, have a good trip!

 

[Noiz2]

Actually you made me think of something. I'm planning on bringing along the really small CAD small condenser. It might actually just plug in the bottom of the DR-40 giving you a mono cardioid in a very small package.

I think certainly slapping the MixPre as a front end would probably raise the bar, but then you would also be bringing external mics, and now your getting close to a big pack again.

The super fast grab and go is one of the most attractive features for these units.

Of course non of that counts for much if you can't use the recordings...

Two functions on the DR40 that should help (providing the mics and pres are OK) is a mode where the unit will lower the level based on incoming peaks. It's not a limiter and it won't boost the gain back up, but since the limiter is in software it's not nearly as effective as the MixPres soit's probably not going to the lifesaver the MP's is. The other feature is you can do dual recordings with the second track recording at a fixed amount lower than the first. Both of these should go a long way into mitigating some of the draw backs to a tiny recorder with little controls and limited display. At least for FX recording. Setting levels in the h2 (for me) was a big PITA. Some of that had to do with it's ability to overload with any low end/ wind/ handling. I found my self often recording way lower than I normally would because of this. Also having to basically set it someplace and stay away from it really limited what you could record with it.

The Olympus I mentioned earlier had very little of these problems. We often took it hand held into crowds and such. we did have a big wind muf on it because it was pretty wind sensitive, but then so are most mics. I tried that a few times with the h2 and you would loose 50+ percent to odd rumbles and shmata that stomped on the recordings. Put it on a stand and it was mostly OK.

On the train there wont be any stable non vibrating surfaces to stick it on so I knew the h2 would be a waste.

I wasn't super happy about it's sound either, to be honest. It was noisier than I would like and for all it's low end issues it didn't record all that much low end. When I get back I'l do some comparison tests out of curiosity.