This thread may help hvx200/ hd100 debate

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collie

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As I stated iin the last post ,I have never been afraid to agree or disagree with the post in this forum. I would never sign in under a different name to have anyone agree with me,I dont have the time to play internet games.

I found this thread which sort of goes back to what I was saying about the economics of the Panny hvx200. http://gyhduser.com/showthread.php?t=108

I can not see this camera being too good(8-10k)
when their standard def sdx900 which is a fantastic camera for filmmakers and film out sells for 26k and rents pretty cheaply

It is all about money with corporations and they will not allow anything to disrupt the tremedous sdx900 market which makes Panny a lot of money
 
Your right no under $10,000 is going to match one of the $20,000 or $100,000 cameras, but times have changed and the demand for video is growing. Not every person, company, producer wants a $100,000 rig. It's not needed or can many afford them. But the market is wide open for smaller companies etc. Camera's like the DVX100, XL1's and 2's, GL1's and 2's, PD150 and PD170 and others have been doing all kinds of work the last few years. It will only get better too. The high def camera's might not be as good, but they are going to get used and whether its HDV or HD people will be watching it.

The only debate for me is which under $10,000 camera I will buy. Probably under $6,000 I will buy.
 
I can not see this camera being too good(8-10k)
when their standard def sdx900 which is a fantastic camera for filmmakers and film out sells for 26k and rents pretty cheaply
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I don't get why anyone would want to imply that the lens on one $6,000 camera will be better than the lens on another $6,000 camera, or worse, based on whether one manufacturer offers a $26,000 camera or not. For the record, JVC offers expensive standard-def cameras as well. If you're not aware, the DVCPRO50 format of the SDX900 is bitstream identical with the D-9/DigitalS format offered by JVC on their DY-90U camera. Are you implying that JVC will purposely cripple the HD100 to "protect" sales of their $16,000 DY-90U?
The reason there's optimism about the HVX's lens, vs. the JVC's, is that the HVX's lens is being designed in tandem with the chips to work together to produce the best results they can engineer. The JVC can't necessarily say the same -- their chips/etc have to work with whatever lens someone puts on it, whereas with the Panasonic it's a closed system, and can therefore be optimized. That's not to say that an interchangeable lens system isn't desirable, because of course it is! But when considering that probably 95%+ of the HD100's that get sold will be used as essentially "fixed-lens" cameras, comparing HVX Leica glass to the $800 Fujinon is really the only question, and in that circumstance I think it's reasonable to expect that the closed-loop, optimized-design philosophy that Panasonic can employ will lead to results that are at the bare minimum "as good" as the JVC solution, and most likely better.

It is all about money with corporations and they will not allow anything to disrupt the tremedous sdx900 market which makes Panny a lot of money
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It is all about money with corporations, yes. And Panasonic will sell a bare minimum of 20 HVX's for every one SDX they sell. I think the number is more like 50 to one, and if the HVX is a big hit, we could see numbers as high as 100 to 1. Which means way more profit to the bottom line for the HVX line than for the SDX line. Hence Panasonic is incentivized to make the HVX every bit as good as they possibly can, within the constraints of its $5995 pricetag.

Regarding the thread you referenced on gyhduser -- most of the commentary was coming from Steve Mullen, who seems to have become quite anti-Panasonic recently, so please consider the source, and when facts are presented, ask for reference. For example, he says that since the FX1/Z1 came out, he has sold exactly *one* copy of his DVX book/guide, which he takes as indications of how poorly the DVX is selling. What he doesn't mention is that a) EVS sells three DVXs for every FX1/Z1 sold, and b) we released The DVX Book/DVD at about the same time as the FX1 came out, and it's sold tremendously, which may have had an impact on sales of his product, and c) due to my bundling deal with Panasonic I pretty much know exactly how many DVXs are selling nationwide, and while that's confidential information, I don't think Panasonic's too concerned...
 
Wow, I’m amazed. That gyhd thread has folks saying don’t get involved in rumor, speculation and conjecture and then spills into rumor, speculation and conjecture. This entire HVX200 issue has degraded into an argument that sounds like a bunch of Boston Red Sox fans in the same bar as a bunch of New York Yankees fans.

(This has been said over and over here) The HVX200 is a tool just like a hammer or a drill for a contractor. If it fits the bill when it’s released then get it, if you need something now then get something now, if it doesn’t measure up in your opinion to the competitors then get something else, if the options don’t justify the cost in your mind, get something else.

$10,000.00 for what amounts to a workflow revolution for our needs is a beautiful thing for our company. And that’s taking for granted the quality of the acquisition device which I’m confident will be par or better considering the track record of Panasonic.

The fixed lens or removable lens debate has already been answered for our company in the SD world, there are thousands and thousands of happy DVX100 users creating hundreds of excellent productions with a fixed lens or using adaptors if needed. Fixed or removable lens is a non-issue for our needs due to the adaptors out there.

Time is money and the P2 option will pay for itself quickly for our purposes here. And I’m positive that P2 prices will drop in the future and I’m also equally certain that we’ll pay $1,700.00 now for something that will only cost $400.00 or so within a few years. We’ve paid $4,000.00 dollars for gear in the past that’s totally obsolete now with absolutely no value but it got us in the game and got the job done in its time.

The P2 argument is equivalent to complaining to all hard drive manufacturers about “Why are you charging me $1.00 a GB for something that will only be $.50 a GB in 3 years?!?!”

And again, the lens argument no longer exists imo with all of the adaptors available now which actually offer more options than an interchangeable lens.
 
It is all about money with corporations and they will not allow anything to disrupt the tremedous sdx900 market which makes Panny a lot of money among other anti corporate quotes.

Yes, Companies, matsushita's panasonic division in this case, are in the business of making money. The profit motive has been the impetuous for some of the greatest advances in our society. Think cholesterol lowering drugs, wi-fi, commercial aircraft to name just three. I assure you pfizer, cisco and boeing were not doing the r&d on these products for the love of jesus. Here, it is my view, that panasonics end goal is consistent with the best interest of the consumer. ie: make profit by providing a quality low cost option for aspiring film makers. To quote your last post, panasonic, in this case, is my friend.

You would have a much stronger argument of "unfriendly" panasonic in discussing the HVX impact on the DVX as a reason for high cost of the p2 cards. Here, there is a much smaller price point variance and similar utility between cameras. The dvx has been such a great seller for Panasonic because it brought 24 p into a market where people could dream of making an independent film that didn't look like junk at a very low cost. please see Bushemi's "Lonesome Jim" as a great example. (this was shot without the anamorphic adapter BTW).

The HVX will have a true 16:9, as well as a better pic quality. I like the idea of the P2 cards downloading to lap top on the set and I think it makes the process easier, maybe I am in the minority. (dvx plus anamorphic adapter very close cost to HVX if shooting both on tape) I think more potential dvx buyers will poney up fro the HVX than those who would downgrade in your example. I would look for serious price erosion on the dvx once the hvx is released for this reason. :thumbsup: One more note: Traditional 35 mm eqipment was so cost prohibitive, filmakers had to rent, they did not do this as a preference, and if you think about it, why would they? and with the advent of ebay, as barry says, you could rent from yourself.
 
"This thread may help hvx200/ hd100 debate "

..uhh you have a strange notion of helping.. beating the same old drum. who knows though, if you beat it long enough it might magically start making sense one day. i mean seriously.. that luck charms guy might swing by and shake things all up.
 
I really fail to see your point Collie. Of course the HVX won't be as good as the SDX. I don't think anyone said it would be.

And it won't be as good as the Genesis either. With almost every camera package there is a better model out there, with a subsequent increase in visual possibilities and coinciding budget increases.

The question is - will this camera accomplish what I need it too ?

The entire business of movie making is Creative Compromise. If you have the resources and talent to rent the SDX900 or buy it, then do so. Like I said in the other thread you started, of which this seems an extension, renting is a highly specific function of one's money, ability and market.

The rest of us will prepare, adjust and react to creative and market forces and run with the HVX (if it's as good as expected) to tell our stories.

Question the tech specs all you want, but negativity without context is pointless.
Tell me why , with all other factors being equal (cast, story, direction, talent) renting the SDX900 is such a quantum leap over the HVX (assuming one is willing to work around its limitations).

So far IMO you haven't got a good answer for that.
 
I don't really need your "help" to decide whether or not the HVX would be a better buy than the SDX or PD150/170, or the HD100.

I will wait to see sample footage. If it doesn't have any glaring issues, I'll get the HVX w/o the P2 cards (for the current price of a P2 I could just buy a used Powerbook and write 1080p straight to it). Once P2s drop in price, maybe I'll pick up a few. Or maybe rent them.

I have been wanting another DVX/PanaAna combo for some time. Together they cost about $3800. The HVX will sell for about $5250 after all of the dust settles. That's less than a $1,500 difference--to not have PanaAna focus issues, to have native 16:9 chips, and oh yeah, there's that DVCPRO25/50/100 thing thrown in for good measure!

It may be "vogue" to use lots of fancy primes. But a person who knows what they're doing will be able to make the integrated HVX lens work just fine. If not, rent a VariCam and be done with it.
 
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