FS7: This grading thing (or why choose Cine IE or Custom mode)

FS100? Luxury! You wanna wrangle a VX1000 with a wonky dv input.

REC709 and PAL/NTSC SD have been the way Broadcast/Video people edited for decades.It's not like phenomenal work wasn't done until people started shooting log. I really think you (not you personally) need to have your understanding of the underlying concepts sorted before jumping off the deep end.
 
mainstreetprod said:
It also kept things simple by giving me a solid workflow. I just kept it in Cine EI mode and dealt with the lack of LUTS in HFR recording and playback (usually by focusing and framing in normal mode and then switching).
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I've done this too but note while you can frame/focus in normal mode, once you switch to HFR you need to readjust your exposure to make up for any light being lost due to HFR (shooting at higher frame rates) so again this is a major pain in butt if you are trying to shoot with very precise and consistent light levels. This is where having a GOOD external waveform monitor available will save you.
 
My exposure drops with the framerate/shutter as you'd expect. What is this gain setting other people are using?
 
Slog or not slog. That was the question

Slog or not slog. That was the question

It seems this discussion has stirred passions on both sides of the slog aisle.
Im still a bit confused as well but even I can understand the advantage of a 12-14 stop latitude range. Very close to Kodak Vision series cinema stock.
However as asserted by the original post, is the time and effort worth it in the end?

Post can be a quagmire of expense because of the great unknown. When I budget a series for example, my budget can't change in mid season. For thst reason I need my post partners to give me a solid number they can live with. This is why for an upcoming series shoot, I sat down with my editor and we came up with a nice work flow thst will be easier for her while giving me more shooting options.
I decided slog2 but still undecided as to whether or not to go CINE EI or just stay custom at 4:2:2.
Am I way of my rocker here?
 
Makes complete sense and your editor must be very happy to be involved in the process from the start. That way everyone knows what is expected and there will be no nasty surprises. In that instance I would certainly shoot log (either slog2 or 3) and I'd shoot Cine because as it is going through that process your editor can decide if it requires NR or similar as opposed to you baking that in before they ever get the rushes.
 
starcentral said:
There can be depending on how your camera is setup, and if not the camera is adding gain to keep Exposure.
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Are you saying this because of increased noise in HFR? Certainly, exposure in EI is rock solid switching between frame rates on my camera, though I've never figured why the noise level increases...
 
I use slog3 in Custom mode, outside almost at 5800K, 2000 ISO and 61% zebra, so dynamic range is 14 stops. Can use S&T can change fast to full auto mode (for that one shot inside that lighthouse). So what is the difference with Cine mode? Looks less flexible to me. Have to correct/grade but that is not so difficult. I like the image, outside bright day/cloudy water sea and air, fantastic result. Wouldn't be so nice with camera with less dynamic range.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Sometimes two heads are better than one, and someone else with knowledge and craft can see what you are striving for in your cinematography and use her own skills and craft to distill and enhance what you are trying to achieve.
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This is how any great work is made.

Took me a long time to learn that I could only take the quality of my work so far. The ENG/videographer mindset of "I'm going to do everything myself, everybody else is a clown" just means you haven't met talented people, and will limit the size and quality of the work you do.
 
So, the $64,000 question.. if I bake in S-log3 with a REC709A LUT in camera, how much dynamic range do I end up with?

I'm scheduled to make a marketing video next week for the equestrian field. Indoor arena, with natural light from windows on all four walls, no overhead lights. I may need more than REC709 range. What do y'all think?
 
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I think don't get too hung up on it. People have been making beautiful images within a REC709 colour space for years.

Sounds like you might at the very least benefit from some bounce/reflectors though.
 
Ain't gonna get bounce reflectors on the budget this client is on. Have to shoot with available light. If I can get the camera up high, I may be able to avoid direct light from windows on the opposite side of the arena.

But I'm rather curious what the point of baking in the LUT is, besides situations where you will be handing off to an editor and need to 'idiot-proof' the footage somewhat.

I checked, and I actually have the P2 LUT (hypergamma) set to record. I've been testing with that and the footage comes out very clean at ISO 500. The concern is whether I've lost 2 stops by doing this.
 
I meant a simple pop up reflector that costs about $20 for if you're doing any interviews or closer work.

As for the rest, no point at all other than some people prefer that workflow, which is fair enough really.
 
basspig said:
So, the $64,000 question.. if I bake in S-log3 with a REC709A LUT in camera, how much dynamic range do I end up with?

I'm scheduled to make a marketing video next week for the equestrian field. Indoor arena, with natural light from windows on all four walls, no overhead lights. I may need more than REC709 range. What do y'all think?
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In practice, a rec. 709 lut is "display" referred with a 2.4 power (gamma), hence there is an electro optical transfer function from the linear signal (luminance) in the bottom part to the non-linear (voltage) in the top part. Your question was how much dynamic range do you end up with? The answer currently is no more than 7 stops. The missing stops are not hard clipped, they are compressed into the highlights according to the 709 transfer function. This is true whether you bake the lut in during exposure, or add the lut in post. The only way to see 14 stops at the present is with the Dolby Pulsar, which is designed to produce 10,000 nits of light output and employs liquid cooling. The Samsung SUHD HDR can display 1000 nits. HDR (Dolby Vision and H10) use a different electro optical transfer function. If you want to preserve your ability to view 14 stops of DR in the future, you need to record S-Log/2/3, and 12 bits minimum (or raw) for Dolby Vision PQ (Perceptual Quantizer), or 10 bit XAVC for Samsung SUHD HDR with fewer stops of DR. The practical reality for 14 stops of DR with your Sony camera, is you've never seen them displayed with 14 stops on any monitor. The cameras are way ahead of the displays at this point, and have been for several years. F3/F5/F7/F55/F65/Alexa/Red, just to name a few. But you have to record with log gammas or raw, 10 bits or more, and no 709 Luts in-cam or in post if you want to preserve what you cannot see on any monitor at this time. What we need to be doing is pressing Dolby, Blackmagic to make available new EOTs, to press the display manufacturers to make SUHD HDR monitors metadata aware, and 10 bit tools for encoding HEVC with metadata. There is some work ahead.
 
basspig said:
What do y'all think?
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I think you're going to blow-out all those windows if the shoot is in the middle of the day. It's virtually unavoidable no matter what settings you choose. And so what? Blown out windows in an arena should not be a big deal if you let them blow out in a pleasing manner using LOG or even Hypergamma. I'd use S-LOG2 because S-LOG3 clips too early, expose for the action on the floor, and not lose any sleep over the windows.
 
I agree with Doug, and I would also say not to bake in a LUT because you may be able to pull some detail out of the midtowns with a custom curve that you can experiment with in post.

And don't ever dream of reflectors at an equestrian event! I've seen horses spook at the oddest things. I shot a feature on Mackinac Island in Michigan, a great vacation spot where there are no cars allowed (it's only eight miles round). We would be careful to always tabletop the reflectors whenever someone rode by on a horse, but some of them REALLY didn't like those things and got very upset. And one time someone left a 2K Junior sitting on the ground and a horse kicked it so far & high that it looked like a field goal.
 
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