Barry_Green
Moderator
P2 handles 640mbps, or 80 megabytes per second. Enough to store HDCAM SR's 440mbps data rate, but not enough for raw uncompressed HD.
Third Party P2 cards?
- Thread starter aryk
- Start date
Ernest_Acosta
Well-known member
aryk said:
I agree 100% with Aryk. My guess is that rental houses would probably rent in a 3 card package for $200.00 a day/weekend. Not a bad price if it becomes reality. At $2k a card, that would mean 30 different days/weekends before equalling the cost of 3 cards. At 100,000 rewrites, this can be very lucrative for rental houses. It should be low maintenance because these cards are apparently built like a tank.
Jarred and PKraft,
I tend to agree that perhaps initially renting perhaps just P2 cards might be a good option (I am not sure how cheap it is going to be though). However, I am also sure that it will not be long to be able to upgrade a P2 card from 4GB to 16GB and do it more cheaply than buying a 16GB card outright. BTW, when Panasonic showed a P2 card to me the 1st time it was very very simple to open it.
I tend to agree that perhaps initially renting perhaps just P2 cards might be a good option (I am not sure how cheap it is going to be though). However, I am also sure that it will not be long to be able to upgrade a P2 card from 4GB to 16GB and do it more cheaply than buying a 16GB card outright. BTW, when Panasonic showed a P2 card to me the 1st time it was very very simple to open it.
Endurance_Man
Active member
Only possible reason for this price is a very high margin
Only possible reason for this price is a very high margin
As I have already stated a while ago in another thread (P2 Shenanigans), the only possible reason for such a high price is a very high margin for Panasonic in the P2s. If Panasonic licenses the techonogy, it will probably charge a very high license fee and make the approval very slow and difficult.
Today one can buy 120x-133x speed 2GB SD cards for $140-$170, times four, to make a 8GB P2 card, we get to $560-$680. This is VERY far from $2000, even after you consider the cost of P2 packaging and the little logic you need for a 4 SD raid 0.
Endurance_Man
Only possible reason for this price is a very high margin
As I have already stated a while ago in another thread (P2 Shenanigans), the only possible reason for such a high price is a very high margin for Panasonic in the P2s. If Panasonic licenses the techonogy, it will probably charge a very high license fee and make the approval very slow and difficult.
Today one can buy 120x-133x speed 2GB SD cards for $140-$170, times four, to make a 8GB P2 card, we get to $560-$680. This is VERY far from $2000, even after you consider the cost of P2 packaging and the little logic you need for a 4 SD raid 0.
Endurance_Man
Barry_Green said:
Wow! Can the SD media handle that already, or is that a theoretical maximum of the device?
Is it possible that we will see other manufacturers using P2 and superior formats (from Pany too) recording to it? If that is tha case then, sorry, I guess it will be pretty high end, I eat my words iamloser.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It is my understanding that this is the speed that the current HD cards run at (i.e., 4gb and over). The standard-def 2gb P2 card isn't as fast.mmm said:
They use 20mB/sec SD memory cards, and RAID them together to get 80 megayte/sec data throughput rates for the P2 card.
That's up to the other companies, certainly. I'm sure Panasonic would be thrilled if that were to happen.Is it possible that we will see other manufacturers using P2 and superior formats (from Pany too) recording to it? If that is tha case then, sorry, I guess it will be pretty high end, I eat my words iamloser.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The free-market economy will take care of that, don't worry. If nobody buys 'em, the prices will come down. If there's that much markup, other companies will enter and make their own.mmm said:
khmuse
Tech Guru
The company I work for OEMs a few items from Matsushita (Panasonic) so we have been through the licensing process before. What we have learned is that Matsushita is simply too large to work with many smaller companies as they are concerned that an excessive amount of engineering support time would be expended for the revenue stream that they would realize. For the devices that we work with (optical drives) they need a $250k per line item annual minimum to even consider an OEM relationship. At that level, you are not allowed any engineering support (outside of the standard package of documentation supplied).
From what I can gather here, it seems that there may be enough interest in the P2 technology for my company to considering manufacturing them. At this point in time, I don't know if there are any intellectual property protections surrounding the technology or if it is simply a trademarked descriptor. I would be interested to learn roughly what the market size would be for P2 storage devices at a given capacity and a given price (wholesale, not retail). Would anyone care to make a guess so that I can pitch the idea?
From what I can gather here, it seems that there may be enough interest in the P2 technology for my company to considering manufacturing them. At this point in time, I don't know if there are any intellectual property protections surrounding the technology or if it is simply a trademarked descriptor. I would be interested to learn roughly what the market size would be for P2 storage devices at a given capacity and a given price (wholesale, not retail). Would anyone care to make a guess so that I can pitch the idea?
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
Wait a minute. The idea of replacing the flash media within the P2 card was mentioned. I want to know more about that. I mean Samsung's coming out with 16GB flash media. I think someone should look into that possibility. I'd be glad to void my flash media warranty with a 80% or more chance something like that would work. What do you guys think?
-Nate
-Nate
Endurance_Man
Active member
16GB is probably compactflash, not SD card, so it would not work. I understand the largest, high speed SD card is 4GB (Pretec 4GB 133x SD card), which should be in the retailers quite soon, that would make a 16GB P2 card. Endurance_Man
PanasonicNZ
Well-known member
P2 cards CANNOT be upgraded. In order to acheive the 640Mb speed. reading and writing is not done by the SD card controller, it is done by the housekeeping chip that you will find on the other side of the board (for a matter of fact, the SD cards must be in lock or save position in order to work inside a P2 card - this disables the internal controller for writing operations). That chip is specific to the P2 card - namely a 4GB card has 4 1GB SD cards which that controller is programmed to address. If you change the SD cards with bigger ones (which is perfectly possible, SD cards are actually plugged in, not soldered)you wil obtain a... 4GB P2 card, because the controller can't address the extra memory. The high price of the card comes mainly from the quality of SD cards - not all are the same. They are selectioned for speed and only the top 3-5% are actually used for P2. The rest are sold to the consumer market. The other expensive bit is the actual controller.
Endurance_Man
Active member
Dear Gabriel,
Thank you for explaining about the controller, the current controllers certainly kill a nice possibility. It would have been better to have P2 cards with controllers that allowed for upgrades.
I understand that as long as a card has the required speed, and ALL 133x speed SD cards do, I don't see why you choose only the top 3-5% faster for use in a P2. Perhaps if you took a batch of slower SD cards you would have to do that, but if you take a batch of 133x SD cards, all should be fine for P2 use.
Do you mean that the controller cost more than $200 or $300? That would be extremelly expensive, but adding to the packaging, would still leave a huge margin.
Endurance_Man (Electronic Engineer)
Thank you for explaining about the controller, the current controllers certainly kill a nice possibility. It would have been better to have P2 cards with controllers that allowed for upgrades.
I understand that as long as a card has the required speed, and ALL 133x speed SD cards do, I don't see why you choose only the top 3-5% faster for use in a P2. Perhaps if you took a batch of slower SD cards you would have to do that, but if you take a batch of 133x SD cards, all should be fine for P2 use.
Do you mean that the controller cost more than $200 or $300? That would be extremelly expensive, but adding to the packaging, would still leave a huge margin.
Endurance_Man (Electronic Engineer)
pywl
Active member
I think thereare many reasons why they choose only the top 3-5%.
1. Quality!!!
2. Not all things are made equal..even if you made 1,000 of them. I work for an optical drive company and believe me its strange but true.
3. While shooting in the field you would really hate for your perfect shot to be ruined by your $2k P2 card dropping a frame or completely dying on you.
Memory is memory. The more stable and secure the memory the higher the cost. Thats one reason why you see so many companies and why prices vary so much. Memory and HD can all come with bad places (sectors).
1. Quality!!!
2. Not all things are made equal..even if you made 1,000 of them. I work for an optical drive company and believe me its strange but true.
3. While shooting in the field you would really hate for your perfect shot to be ruined by your $2k P2 card dropping a frame or completely dying on you.
Memory is memory. The more stable and secure the memory the higher the cost. Thats one reason why you see so many companies and why prices vary so much. Memory and HD can all come with bad places (sectors).
Endurance_Man
Active member
Pywl,
If you re-read Gabriel's post, you will see that he specifically stated "They are selectioned for speed and only the top 3-5% are actually used for P2.". So if they are selected for SPEED, it either meets or not this specific attribute, and all or at least 99% of 133x speed SD cards should pass. Speed is a very specific attribute. We are talking about some very good companies, such as Sandisk, Kingston and other, and we are talking about flash memory, not hard drives, so I don't buy this "quality" story which does not point to any specific attribute.
Cheers, Endurance_Man
If you re-read Gabriel's post, you will see that he specifically stated "They are selectioned for speed and only the top 3-5% are actually used for P2.". So if they are selected for SPEED, it either meets or not this specific attribute, and all or at least 99% of 133x speed SD cards should pass. Speed is a very specific attribute. We are talking about some very good companies, such as Sandisk, Kingston and other, and we are talking about flash memory, not hard drives, so I don't buy this "quality" story which does not point to any specific attribute.
Cheers, Endurance_Man
PanasonicNZ
Well-known member
They are probably sorted for a whole set of criteria, not speed only, but I have no information regarding that. I KNOW for sure that the factory is using selected SD cards. Why they do that and why they are following such strict rules, I have no idea. Also I cannot comment on the pricing of the cards, because I have no information regarding the cost of manufacure and also the cost of the other components involved. Price will drop for sure when oter manufacturers will step in.