Thinking of switching cameras

J

Justintime

New member
Hey everyone,


This is my first post here but I've been visiting the site for about a week or so. There is so much info here but I need to get right down to it. I currently shoot with the larger 1/2' chip shoulder style cameras, a JVC GYDV500 and a Panasonic AGDVC200. My main shooting has been TV ads and industrials but I want to take a stab at some creative shorts and maybe even a feature length documentary, film style. I don't necessarily need to go high def but I do want to slim down on the camera side and have more control over my picture quality. My cams are getting up there in age and my older NP batteries are starting to show their age as well. Can someone recommend a cam that will give me professional results on the daily biz side as well as give me the film- makers flexibility? Remember that my clients re used to seeing 1/2" chip quality and all of these new cams are only 1/3". Does anyone think that the HVX200 is better than the DVX100B? What about Sony or Canon?

thanks for sharing.
 
The HVX, Canon XLH1 and XH-A1, JVC-HD100/250 and Sony HVR-V1U all seem to be all are here for you. The HVX, XLH1 and XH-A1, and Sony HVR-V1U all have the ability to do what you're looking to do. The JVC-HD100 only does 720p. If you can afford the HVX and all that comes with I'd say get it, if not you should go for the Canon or Sony. I'm considering the Canon A1.

-Nate
 
Form factor wise only the XLH1 and the HD100 come close to matching the DV500 but quality wise they're all going to blow it away. I don't know if you film in low light a lot though. If you do you're going to be in for a shock at how poorly these cam do. I used the DV500 with the A1 for a show recently and their quality was comparable, with the DV500 coming out ahead in term of brightness but still retaining vivid color. The A1 color under that condition was a lot more muddled. With a lot of light though, the A1 was way better.
 
I don't think I'm quite ready to give up the shoulder style so I've scratched the HVX and DVX off my list. The Canon is nice but if i ever did want to shoot HD, I would have to add a hard drive because it can't record in HDV. I'm looking at the JVC's because they most closely match what I have now in terms of design and lens choices. Does anyone have any real opinion on whether the 250 is actually worth the extra money over the 110?
 
Justintime:

Several things you should be aware of:

As a pro, you should know that HDV is not quite the same as the other HD formats.

The minimum HD spec accepted by Discovery HD and other networks is DVCPro HD, which has a 50MB/Sec transfer rate (the same data rate as the DVCPro50 SD format off the F900s, whether they be powering digiBetas, IMXs, whatever), and above.

HDV is a 15 frame long-GOP compressed tape format that is only 25MB/sec. It's also 1080 lines and not the full 1920 that is spec'd by the HD people as being HD.

Now truthfully, there's not a lot out there yet that is full res HD top to tail at the moment, almost all presently available cameras in our price range use a modicum of some kind of compression or another. Anything under the 2k camera format is likely to be compressed, but a lot of those higher end cameras' compression codecs are not GOP based.

The camera that you would most want to get runs in the $15,000++ range and is called the Panasonic Varicam. Shoulder format, network spec HD and not HDV, interchangeable lenses, multi format codecs and multi shutter speeds, ramping, the works. Get that camera and you'll shoot it for a long while in many places.

The closest HDV compressed format camcorder is the JVC HD range, several models from the oldest HD100 to the current HD250. Interchangeable Fuji lenses, shoulder format, great picture, but long-GOP compression codecs.

Don't be fooled by the review stats, BTW. HDV holds together fine on a test chart or any locked off shot. It's when things start to move sideways, and quickly, that the codec starts to not be so good. In the end, most all HDV camcorder image quality is constrained by the 25MB/s bitrate, so they all end up looking much the same. Differences here and there, sure, but put any of them up against a 50 or 100MB/s signal and they all look, well, not as great.

So if you're only going to shoot mainly drama, or stuff where the standard film rule applies (when you're panning, every object you see has to remain in frame for at least 7 seconds), you're fine with HDV. I run an HDV camera myself, since I shoot mainly reality and drama work. Between $7 and $15 per hour tape stock, can't beat the price, right? Plus I used to run DVXs so have quite a few miniDV tapes over and most HDV camcorders will play those SD tapes back too.

If things you will end up shooting most are moving faster than that (e.g. sports, action flicks and the like) then you're going to have to run tests to see what the GOP codec does to fast lateral motion. Most people say it ain't pretty. Most people go the Varicam route and above.

The JVC HDs all give up excellent images, with fine image controls you're already used to.

Naturally the HVX200 is an incredible camera. But the shoulder mount 500 will be out soon, and that may be another camera to watch. We'll see.

Absolutely the best bang for the buck (but not shoulder mount, sorry) camcorder that is definitely future proof is the Canon XH-G1. SDI output, full digital camera control straight off the camera into a full digital studio remote rig, plus convenient and cheap HDV compressed tape transport. Around $6000. Image controls that are latest generation, almost infinitely adjustable, any parameter you can think of, and a lot more besides. Fixed glass, though, but Canon flourite, so if you have to be stuck with just that one lens, it wouldn't exactly be the end of the world.

Nothing around it for the price except for the H1, same image making chain, shoulder format, interchangeable lenses, but very, very expensive for what it is. At that price altitude (nose bleed for most of us, just thinking about it), most pros I have talked to about it would rather go for a Varicam instead. Call them conservative. The Varicam's been a staple for a while.

And its smaller sibling, the A1, also not shoulder form, no SDI outputs. Half the price of a G1. Same lens, sensors, image processing. 25MB/s HDV codec.

Now I'm not sure about this, but a lot of the current generation HDV camcorders have an HDMI output, which is at heart a repackaged component output. A few companies, Aja among them, make component in to SDI out A/D converters, which may be useful, but the thing I'm not sure about is which of the camcorders, if any, output their HDMI or component signals raw (before HDV compression). Obviously if the component output were to be uncompressed, then that would be another avenue to consider.


HTH, YMMV, etc.

Cheers
Chris
 
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If you are considering the JVC 250, look to the new HPX-500 from panny. 14k for body/lens/4x 16gB P2 cards with 2/3 sensors and all the goodies plus some from the HVX200, looks like a winner.
 
emotepix, you may want to check some of the facts of your post.

For example DVCPRO-HD is 100Mbps, not 50MBps.

You will find that HDV is accepted by the Discovery channel, in some cases as higher ratios than DVCPRO-HD (Depending on the camera used).

And HDMI is a lot more than just re-packaged component.

Check your details before posting them as fact.


- Mikko
 
And the Varicam runs quite a bit more than $15,000, even when you consider that a "range."

And the F900 doesn't shoot DVCPRO of any flavor, or SD, for that matter.
 
I'm not overly interested in HD right now. Whether something is true HD or just HDV doesn't mean much to me. None of the bread n' butter projects that I work on right now have the budget nor the need. I do realize that this is the way the world is going so to not buy an HD capable cam might mean shelling out more bucks sooner than I want when we do become an HD world. I think for simplicity sake I'll either re-visit the Canon XLH1 (now that I know it shoots HDV) or pick up one of the JVC's. Either way, I can still make a living and get creative if I want to. Thanks for your advice guys. Does anyone know if any dealers out there have a program wherethey might apply your rental fee to a purchase if you decide to buy aafter you rent? i really want to test the cam in a real world shoot before I commit.
 
Sounds like you just need a DVX 100b, if HD doesn't mean much to you. Personally, I think the DVX 100b in some ways is superior to the HVX (I own them both). It's at least a stop more sensitive, no P2 workflow baloney (sorry, never lost a clip on tape), and it doesn't suffer the dreaded macro blocking noise as badly as the HVX (which in my opinion can take the H out of HD). Also, because it has less macro noise, it transcodes to SD DVD's much cleaner. You can also hold out and see how the new Sony XD Cam EX performs. It's about HVX size, will shoot to less expensive and faster E 34 cards, 50mb data rate, 4:2:2 color and the real winner is it will have a 1/2" chip (less noise, higher sensitivity). Did I mention 24p, 25p, 1080 and 720.

I get alot of mileage and work from my HVX because everybody wants to shoot on it. But I truly believe caught up in the hype many people (especially owners) haven't really examined it's deficiencies. If you shoot docs, the sensitivity is an issue. If you shoot hi con imagery that'll go to SD DVD, the noise is criminal. I know many people say shoot on Bpress and crush the blacks but you know, not everything should look like fight club. If this Sony measures up, you'll see my HVX on the block in a heartbeat.

Tim Naylor DP
www.timnaylor.com
 
unfortunatly the Sony EX wont have the 422 50mbps XDcam.... if it did, i would drop my hvx too. but its the standard 35mbps. i'll hold out for the next gen camera.
 
We are currently using the HVX200 and I am sold. I am extremely happy with the quality. Like everyone else I am looking forward to "Red" but until then I will only have the HVX200 on my productions.

shihan
 
I shoot over 100 commercials a year and the dvx100b is a spectacular camera for broadcast in SD.
 
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