Thinking about me, my AF100 and a lot of lenses...

F

freezeframereality

Active member
As many users here I'm a little concerned about Panasonic's route. I like the AF100 very much, I still use it and I think this nice little camera will even get me through 2014. But what then?

I'm heavily invested in native MFT glass. I have all the Voigtlaenders, the 12mm SLR Magic, both Pany X-zooms, a fisheye and the 14-140 standard zoom. The mere thought of all these lenses being useless in a few years because there's no professional camcorder to attach them on does not really make me happy.

So what do you think? Did Panasonic really abandon the whole MFT cinema camera idea? Or is there still a little chance that they will come back?
 
Olympus is making great pro stills camera bodies for m43, Black Magic has two extremely capable cameras with that mount, and time only tells what new will come from Panasonic or other manufacturers. I wouldn't worry about m43 format achieving premature obsolescence.
 
I'm in the same boat. I have a 12mm SLR and the Voigtlander 25 as well as Oly m4/3 lenses. I have a GH2 that I use for stills, so I'll probably hang on to one or more of them but as far as investing any further in m4/3, I don't know. I'm starting to feel that the s35 sensor size is the right one. Going wide has always been a bit of a challenge with the AF100 for me.

On the bright side Kodak has come up with a 4K m4/3 sensor. It's on another thread. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?313671-Kodak-s-Truesense-Imaging-creates-4K-4-3-chip so maybe the next m4/3 camera won't be a Panny. Maybe... I don't know. It's been pretty quiet
 
Who knows what will happen in the future. However, this is one of the reasons I went the super35 route and
never bought any MFT lenses. Didn't want to invest in a format and have the rug pulled out from
under me.
 
From what was discussed on this site about the Panny booth at NAB being constantly peppered with AF100 replacement questions, as well as the popularity of the GH series and they're other m4/3 still cameras, I don't think they would abandon it. My hope is they're going to release a newer version with 4K (which I couldn't care less about) and AVC-LongG sometime in the next year or so when they release the full sized Varicam.
 
David W. Jones said:
Panasonic's new management structure is all about the broadcast market, not cine.
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I get what you're saying, but "Broadcast" is a broad term. The new Varicam is aimed at broadcast, and my old station was using an AF100 for commercials before I was laid off, which is why I think a new AF200/mini-Varicam/whatever you want to call it could fit under that umbrella well.
 
Even if there were no AF successor, there's still a huge market to resell those lenses to. All the Olympus and Panasonic stills camera owners, plus the BMC pocket camera, the BMC MFT camera, and -- if it comes into existence -- the BMC 4K MFT camera that was rumored and has not a shred of evidence to support it but -- in any case, there is a huge market to resell to if you decided to get out of MFT.
 
Barry_Green said:
Even if there were no AF successor, there's still a huge market to resell those lenses to. All the Olympus and Panasonic stills camera owners, plus the BMC pocket camera, the BMC MFT camera, and -- if it comes into existence -- the BMC 4K MFT camera that was rumored and has not a shred of evidence to support it but -- in any case, there is a huge market to resell to if you decided to get out of MFT.
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Barry,

Isn't the announced, upcoming, BMCC 4K camera a Super 35 chip? I am 99.9% sure that was
what they announced but I could have misheard I guess. Or is the BMC 4K MFT camera
a totally different camera.
 
Yes the BMCC 4K is a global shutter s35 sensor.
Kodak announced development of a 4K sensor and rumor has even started that a 4K MFT camera by Blackmagic is in the works.
I hope development of a next generation MFT cinema camera does happen for the same reasons I like my GH3. Size and weight with native lenses. However I don't think a proper MFT cine camera like the AF-100 will be made by another manufacture other than Panasonic.
 
Erik Naso said:
Yes the BMCC 4K is a global shutter s35 sensor.
Kodak announced development of a 4K sensor and rumor has even started that a 4K MFT camera by Blackmagic is in the works.
I hope development of a next generation MFT cinema camera does happen for the same reasons I like my GH3. Size and weight with native lenses. However I don't think a proper MFT cine camera like the AF-100 will be made by another manufacture other than Panasonic.
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OK, so BMCC 4K (the one they announced they are making) is a S35 sensor, cinema cam. And there is a rumor that
they are ALSO making a 4K MFT cinema camera? If that happens to be true....wow BM would really be extending themselves.
It seems they are having issues getting out the cams they have already announced let alone adding more. Of course, maybe that would
be a good reason NOT to announce the 4K MFT cinema cam. And they DO offer a MFT mount on the existing cam, so just maybe...........
 
alaskacameradude said:
Barry,

Isn't the announced, upcoming, BMCC 4K camera a Super 35 chip? I am 99.9% sure that was
what they announced but I could have misheard I guess. Or is the BMC 4K MFT camera
a totally different camera.
Click to expand...
The existing 4K is S35, yes. But someone started a rumor that they were going to look at using the new Kodak 4K m43 imager and put an active M43 mount on it. I don't know that it would happen, and I said "there's not a shred of evidence to support it", but I'm just throwing it out there for those who like such rumors...
 
alaskacameradude said:
And they DO offer a MFT mount on the existing cam, so just maybe...........
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They have an MFT "passive" mount on the existing 2.5k camera, and they have an "active" (electronic) mount on the BMPCC "pocket" camera. So I think folks are just putting 2 and 2 together and hoping it adds up to active-mount MFT 4K. Again, no evidence to support it, just probably wishful thinking on some folks' parts.
 
freezeframereality said:
The mere thought of all these lenses being useless in a few years because there's no professional camcorder to attach them on does not really make me happy.

So what do you think? Did Panasonic really abandon the whole MFT cinema camera idea? Or is there still a little chance that they will come back?
Click to expand...
I think you have to start from the fact that 4/3 was primarily conceived as a still camera format, then it was found (as with DSLRs) that they could have a usable video mode, then the guts of the GH1/2 were packaged in a video friendly body, and hence the AF100.

But there has not been a huge rush to bring out 4/3 chips optimised for video, in any price bracket. Look at virtually all the large sensor video cameras to come out recently, ranging in price from the FS100, through the Canon C100 and C300, to such as the F5/55, and they are all s35. That also seems to be the case for the only Panasonic camera to be announced with a designed for video chip - the 4K Varicam.

And the increasing significance of 4K is only going to make the trend more likely - witness the BM 4K cinema camera - and that's hardly surprising as with 4K pixel counts, a larger sensor keeps the individual photosite size up.

Yes, it's theoretically possible for Panasonic to develop a 4/3 4K chip, optimised for video. But IMO the announcement of the s35 Varicam makes it far less likely. Far more sensible for them to use the same chip across your large format product range - as Canon have done with the C100/300/500 range and Sony with the FS700 and the F5/55. Consequently, I'd expect any "AF200" to be s35 - and not expect to see it until after the launch of the 4K Varicam, so don't expect any such for a couple of years at earliest.

Four/thirds cameras designed for stills, but used for video are a different matter. If that's what you want for reasons of size, cost etc, then there will continue to be a place for 4/3 lenses. But at the moment, if the prime interest is a "cinema" type camera, then s35 and lenses for it seems a far better long term bet.
 
Minor quibble, the AF100 does not share the GH sensor... but on to main points... MFT was chosen for the AF because Panasonic makes a whole mess of MFT and 4/3 lenses but no S35 or larger lenses. If the proposed 4K Varicam has a PL mount for professional S35 cinema glass, that makes sense because PL lenses aren't a huge market. Making their prosumer-level cinema camera for S35 lenses, on the other hand, makes no sense. Assuming they make another, it will use their established 4/3 and MFT lens line. There's been no lack of development of video-optimized MFT sensors... compare the GH3 to the just-released D70, for instance.

Canon and Sony similarly chose mounts and sensors that complemented their established lens offerings. Panasonic will not make a camera optimized for somebody else's lenses.
 
mcbob said:
Minor quibble, the AF100 does not share the GH sensor... but on to main points... MFT was chosen for the AF because Panasonic makes a whole mess of MFT and 4/3 lenses but no S35 or larger lenses. If the proposed 4K Varicam has a PL mount for professional S35 cinema glass, that makes sense because PL lenses aren't a huge market. Making their prosumer-level cinema camera for S35 lenses, on the other hand, makes no sense. Assuming they make another, it will use their established 4/3 and MFT lens line. There's been no lack of development of video-optimized MFT sensors... compare the GH3 to the just-released D70, for instance.

Canon and Sony similarly chose mounts and sensors that complemented their established lens offerings. Panasonic will not make a camera optimized for somebody else's lenses.
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Bingo.
 
mcbob said:
Minor quibble, the AF100 does not share the GH sensor...
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I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed by Panasonic that the AF100 uses the same sensor as the GH2, though the processing is based on that in the GH1. This is why the AF100 performance is about half way between the two - it started off being based on the GH1 front end, then the GH2 chip came out and managed to be incorporated, albeit not with GH2 processing. (Compare the AF100 and GH2 side by side and that's clear from the angle of view - with exactly the same lenses etc, the GH2 has a somewhat wider angle of view, it's using a slightly larger area of the chip.)

You only have to look at the sensor specs to confirm that - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...af100apj_ag_af100a_digital_cinema_camera.html

"Effective Pixels: Approx. 12,400,000 pixels (single panel, 16:9)" - allowing for the 16:9 masking, that corresponds very closely to sensor specs for the GH cameras. If you were designing a 4/3 sensor specifically for video, you wouldn't do that pixel count - you'd make it 8.3 million, 3840x2160 effective. It's 12.4 million effective because it allowed them to use much pre-existing tech.
 
harddrive said:
I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed by Panasonic that the AF100 uses the same sensor as the GH2, though the processing is based on that in the GH1.
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I have never heard any such confirmation, and have instead heard constant denials that say that it is not the same sensor.
 
Barry_Green said:
I have never heard any such confirmation, and have instead heard constant denials that say that it is not the same sensor.
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After a little searching, I've found confirmation from a post by Jan Crittenden that the AF100 and GH2 do indeed share the same basic sensor - see this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...sensor&p=1986146293&viewfull=1#post1986146293 . It's in response to someone else (post 4, same thread) who refers to her having stated it before.

She also seems to confirm it two posts later, same thread. (I'm assuming "GHS" in her first post is a misprint for "GH2".)

What she says IS different between the two is the OLPF used, she says it's stronger on the AF100 than the GH2, but it seems the actual sensor itself is the same. Likewise the processing and things like the codec are more video friendly in the AF100 than the GH2.

And it makes perfect sense that it should be, at least to me. If you use existing technology, it will reduce development time and cost and get a product to market quicker. It also answers why the AF100 has 12 million pixels - it's making reuse of a sensor designed for stills cameras. That just would not make sense if the sensor had been designed specifically for the AF100.
 
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