The value of the Cs3e in practical terms?

[Stingo]

Lets say someone has a choice between spending
$1900 on a hyper and a shotgun (let's say mkh 50 and and a NTG3, but it could be whatever)
or
$1500 on a Cs3e
Perhaps they could take that $400 and put it toward a lav.

Are clients ever gonna hear the difference? Will an audience perceive a difference?

I ask because the CS3e keeps coming up everywhere as an "all in one" solution for beginners who want pro quality, but it's hard to quantify exactly what the real advantage is.

Is a CS3e better than a $500 hyper and a $700 shotgun?
Does this question even make sense?

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[bruceallen]

CS3e rocks, man. I have one and love it for its ability to get great sound in challenging conditions.

But MKH 50 and NTG3 are good too. Be aware that with the MKH50 you need quite a good mount to avoid handling noise.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Postmaster]

Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't aware of that mic.
Quite expensive, but sounds like a great bang for the buck.

Any opinions from our sound pros here?

Frank

 

[Stingo]

CS3e rocks, man. I have one and love it for its ability to get great sound in challenging conditions.

But MKH 50 and NTG3 are good too. Be aware that with the MKH50 you need quite a good mount to avoid handling noise.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I'm looking at a rycote s-series system for any of the above situaions.

A third, sadder scenario, is just buying wireless kits since they are more likey to pay the bills these days

 

[Rick R]

In any scenario, you need a good shock mount, personnel, pre-amp, recorder, ect, ect.
The CS3 is a nice mic, it isn't a be-all, end-all. Some pro folk like it, some don't. Like Genelec monitors, love em or hate em. Whatever floats yo' boat.

 

[Jema]

Is a CS3e better than a $500 hyper and a $700 shotgun?
Does this question even make sense?

There's no simple way to answer this question, since it really depends on the type of work you do. The CS3e seems to be a great all in one since it's got good directionality and can work inside without the deficiencies of most shotguns. However, it can be a little bit noisy for very quiet sounds/sets, and sometimes you actually don't want the most directional mic you can have. In some spaces you also want a smaller mic (such as low ceilings), and there's other benefits of course to have several mics, such as flexibility and working with two booms.

 

[David W. Jones]

I'd rather have the MKH-50 and MKH-60, as opposed to using a single mic trying to be all things. Oh wait, I do have the MKH-50 & MKH-60.

 

[Stingo]

I'd rather have the MKH-50 and MKH-60, as opposed to using a single mic trying to be all things. Oh wait, I do have the MKH-50 & MKH-60.

Sure, but that's exactly what I'm getting at.
We KNOW that spending more money and having two useful pro quality mics is going to be better than a cheaper single mic solution.
My question is more aimed at, where exactly the CS3e lies in terms of quality in either of these mics roles in the same price range.

To my mind, having a MKH 50, MKH 60 and a CS3e would be great, because the Sanken would be useful in situation where you need more "reach" or possibly rejection indoors or just more rejection outdoors. But, I often see it recommended as a single mic solution for noobs, and dollars to donuts I'd like to have a better handle on how accurate that is.
Personally, I don't have any in my area and I'm not sure where to rent one online.

To me, the shootouts done with the CS3e that I've heard have not been terribly useful. I want to hear a CS3e vs a MKH50 in a very reflective room. Or against a much cheaper hyper and shotgun. It's tough for a person about to invest some money to know exactly WHAT this mic is good for when you are actually on set. Most of the stuff I find is written by video guys or people doing "shoot from the hip" interview stuff.

 

[dano]

Stingo:

You may have already bumped into this but just in case here is Dan Brockett's fantastic shoot out which features the MKH50 and CS3e. I own both of the mics and will say that if you can get the MKH50 in a good position will trump the CS3e most of the time. Where the CS3e shines is in noisy environments, outdoors, and if you just can't get close enough (and at that point would have to start thinking lav).

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

Sure, but that's exactly what I'm getting at.
We KNOW that spending more money and having two useful pro quality mics is going to be better than a cheaper single mic solution.
My question is more aimed at, where exactly the CS3e lies in terms of quality in either of these mics roles in the same price range.

To my mind, having a MKH 50, MKH 60 and a CS3e would be great, because the Sanken would be useful in situation where you need more "reach" or possibly rejection indoors or just more rejection outdoors. But, I often see it recommended as a single mic solution for noobs, and dollars to donuts I'd like to have a better handle on how accurate that is.
Personally, I don't have any in my area and I'm not sure where to rent one online.

To me, the shootouts done with the CS3e that I've heard have not been terribly useful. I want to hear a CS3e vs a MKH50 in a very reflective room. Or against a much cheaper hyper and shotgun. It's tough for a person about to invest some money to know exactly WHAT this mic is good for when you are actually on set. Most of the stuff I find is written by video guys or people doing "shoot from the hip" interview stuff.

 

[Guy_Cochran]

There's no simple way to answer this question, since it really depends on the type of work you do. The CS3e seems to be a great all in one since it's got good directionality and can work inside without the deficiencies of most shotguns. However, it can be a little bit noisy for very quiet sounds/sets, and sometimes you actually don't want the most directional mic you can have. In some spaces you also want a smaller mic (such as low ceilings), and there's other benefits of course to have several mics, such as flexibility and working with two booms.

I agree with Jema, it will depend on the type of work you do. If the mass majority of your projects are interior small reflective rooms, then go with the MKH-50 for INT and an NTG-3 for EXT. If you're doing mostly all outdoor, run n gun, or sound stage, the CS-3e really is a "magical mic".
Here is a recent example of it in use:

And...just to compare is me here in this video below with a loud dehumidifier humming along nearby with the CS-3e against a hyper indoors along with a lav, headworn mic, dynamic and two rather inexpensive shotguns mics.

 

[yoclay]

Good second video for explaining to a newcomer the differences between microphones.
Unquestionably the Sanken is great for picking out voices in the midst of a cacauphony, however the reality is that it is a little more sensitive to handling noise than some other microphones. The Senny MKH-60 is one of the best in terms of dealing with both handling and self-noise. For this reason the newcomer to booming would probably be better off with it than the Sanken. It is also has a slighter wider pattern and is therefore a little more forgiving if you miss your mark. I think it would be wiser to have a hyper inside and the mkh-60 for the outside or shotgun situations.
A great entry level hyper remains the Oktava 012. You would need to have a baby ball gag and windjammer, but it really does have a great sound, even if it is more prone to handling noise (which is manageable in controlled situations like interiors). If you can pick up a used MKH60 and the Oktava, you could conceivably bring it all in for under a $1000. In my case that is exactly what happened (including the gag and deadcats) and it has certainly taught me much more than trying to do a one size fits all kind of deal.

 

[Allan Black]

Unless you're a pro with a case of mics, paying $1450 for that Sanken is a classic example of diminishing returns.

For a prosumer, you'll have passed the point after which you're just pouring money at it.

Cheers.

 

[dano]

Good second video for explaining to a newcomer the differences between microphones.
Unquestionably the Sanken is great for picking out voices in the midst of a cacauphony, however the reality is that it is a little more sensitive to handling noise than some other microphones. The Senny MKH-60 is one of the best in terms of dealing with both handling and self-noise. For this reason the newcomer to booming would probably be better off with it than the Sanken. It is also has a slighter wider pattern and is therefore a little more forgiving if you miss your mark. I think it would be wiser to have a hyper inside and the mkh-60 for the outside or shotgun situations.
A great entry level hyper remains the Oktava 012. You would need to have a baby ball gag and windjammer, but it really does have a great sound, even if it is more prone to handling noise (which is manageable in controlled situations like interiors). If you can pick up a used MKH60 and the Oktava, you could conceivably bring it all in for under a $1000. In my case that is exactly what happened (including the gag and deadcats) and it has certainly taught me much more than trying to do a one size fits all kind of deal.

Had the MKH60, sold it for the CS3e. Never had an issue with the CS3e and handling noise, Rycote Invision mount most often with low cut engaged on the CS3e. In most noisy situations, thought the CS3e gave much better results than the MKH60. YMMV.

 

[ggrantly]

Unless you're a pro with a case of mics, paying $1450 for that Sanken is a classic example of diminishing returns.

For a prosumer, you'll have passed the point after which you're just pouring money at it.

Cheers.

So what would be your alternative mic? Just curious.

 

[Allan Black]

So what would be your alternative mic? Just curious.

Hi I'm a semi-retired pro, and I might plunk down for that Sanken, if I had the means to get the beans.

Sanken was not well represented here till a few years ago and currently the CS-3e costs $300 more than at BnH.

At our studios we used Senn 406S for location work then in 2009, Rode sailed in with the NTG-3 which sounds great.
Currently we can buy 3 NTG-3s here for the cost of one Sanken CS-3e.

Shooting at airshows we use G-3s to nail individual aircraft sounds amongst the din of other planes.
Intercutting between 3 or more cameras keeps sounds nicely matched, well mostly

Cheers.

 

[ggrantly]

Agree that the the NTG-3 is a great mic for the buck, it is what I use for a shotgun. I wish Brocket could-would update that comparison adding the NTG-3. FWIW, I thought the CS3e sounded great in the test.

Grant

 

[Allan Black]

Hi Grant, no doubt it does sound great .. have you got a link for Brockets survey? thanks.

Cheers.