The Truth About Compression - Re: "mud"

Illya Friedman

Illya Friedman

Well-known member
There is a lot of needless hysteria that is repeated over and over about the GH1 compression. I think it's mostly reported and re-reported by people who watch web videos and don't actually own a GH1. Until recently, I thought that the issue was dead but clearly with what I read online it is not.

At a conference this past weekend Liam Finn showed many shots from his feature film Rejouer, there was even a section of the presentation called "The Great Unknown" which talked about and showed the problems of the GH1.

Undoubtedly the GH1 compression is a weak point of the camera, and it would be wonderful if it were improved- however, How many shots do you think contained the dreaded "mud" compression issues?

zero!

That's right, none.

There were other surprises/problems, but after hours and hours of material being shot and edited, the "mud" that has permeated the web/blogs in relation to the GH1 is not present. I do mean n o t p r e s e n t.

What did Liam and team do that was different?

They didn't shoot with the 14-140 except on two occasions very briefly (one had a problem with exposure, the other focus, but no "mud"), they didn't shoot "garbage cam" by swinging the camera wildly, and they didn't fill the frame with fast moving objects without an subject/point of focus in the foreground. Also the camera was 100% manual, no auto anything.

While not shown in the presentation, green screen was shot successfully, generally considered the torture test of compression. After the screening- in which 80% of the material had no color correction, I was treated to a barrage of questions and comments all of which were extremely complementary.

If I'm not mistaken, all the pro camera folks on DVXuser have weighed in on the "mud" issue and reported it a non-issue. After 18-days (of mostly hand held and tracking shots) and over 50 cards of GH1 images without "mud", I think it's safe to say if you are seeing "mud" there's a good chance the "mud" is being introduced by the shooter and not the camera.

I hope that next time someone thinks to complain about "mud" artifacts in the GH1, they first take a look at the startling good work done on REJOUER.
 
Well said. Hopefully this will help inject some sanity into those fleeing from the GH1 to the 7D which, at present, has little to no good looking footage that I have seen.

It's about the shooter, not the camera.

As for web video compression, I've found that in many situations this actually can make GH1 footage look even better (relativistically.) :)
 
You confuse good shooting techniques with hardware deficiencies. There are plenty of other cameras that do not exhibit any noticeable mud when they are used in "garbage cam" style or shoot fast moving objects, including Panasonic's own consumer AVCHD camcorders.
 
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Look what it comes down to is this, and this is true with any camera, and is especially true with cameras like the GH1, etc, that might be a little more finicky:

If you are bad at shooting a movie, then your footage will look bad, if you are good at it, then your footage will look good. that's it. plain and simple. I'm a decent photographer/videographer but I know people that could outshoot me with a disposable CVS-brand film point and shoot if I was using a D3. Skill, patience, and artistic eye matter a whole lot more than what you're shooting on.

That said, the GH1 is surely no disposable camera.
 
Originally Posted by Illya Friedman
They didn't shoot with the 14-140 except on two occasions very briefly


Could this have anything to do with it (the mud), or were you just stating that you didn't use this lens?
 
There's another thread out there with a theory that the lens' electronic image correction, etc, help contribute to mud but so far it's mainly hearsay.
 
Well said, Illya. Although the stuff I'm doing is distinctly domestic compared with most here, I don't want to use obviously defective images, and so far I've not had to ditch a single frame due to so-called 'mud'. Operator inadequacy has accounted for a quite a few sequences hitting the cutting room floor, however... I only have the kit lens.

One particular hand held test shot surprised me - it showed some evergreen and other trees in quite a high wind, with two flags blowing about in front of them, and a chain link fence in the lower part of the picture (handy for checking sharpness). Good codec-breaking stuff.

Now one shot I recall seeing on vimeo had some flags blowing in front of a tiled roof, and every time the flags moved relative to the tiled roof, the tile pattern in the image broke up then re-formed. But in my shot (in 720 and 1080), I see nothing of the sort. Nothing untoward at all that I can see in my broadly-equivalent shot. So why the difference?
 
Illya Friedman I thank you for your contribution to the community on what you found works well with the GH1. because of you and your website I was able to go right to my GH1 as soon as I got it and know exactly what to do with it. I agree 100% with your statement. *salute*
 
Ben_B said:
Well said. Hopefully this will help inject some sanity into those fleeing from the GH1 to the 7D which, at present, has little to no good looking footage that I have seen.
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Come on now, there's no need to put down the 7D like that. Don't you remember the very first GH1 video samples posted by Panasonic itself? They looked like crap. I remember people saying here that it looked "worse than HDV" when HDV was in its infancy. Now the only thing people complain about the GH1 footage here is the "mud"; even the crop factor stopped being controversial months ago. You love your GH1, and that's fine. I'm a fan of it myself, though I am not an owner. But you don't have to undercut the enthusiasm for the new camera with such short-sighted statements.
 
Look at all of the GH1 videos on this page, which were the first samples ever released: http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/movie.html

Is your mind blown by any of them? Do they make you think that the camera is a "must buy"? Can you honestly say that they look better than the samples released for the 7D?

I can easily imagine somebody saying, all those months ago, "Hopefully this will help inject some sanity into those fleeing from the D90/5D Mark II to the GH1 which, at present, has little to no good looking footage that I have seen." But look where we are now.
 
I was impressed by the original GH1 video myself. I knew it could be better but looked good to me for streaming video. I still think it is funny somebody will completely judge a camera performance by how it looks streaming over the net. It's like trying to buy a suit from an online shoe salesman. It might not fit and sure as hell doesn't make any sense.

I'm still at a loss why this 7D gets brought up in a GH1 forum. Same as the D90/5D and Pentax K7. They get thrown into almost every GH1 forum topic for some reason. It's a big ol' pissing contest and some people forgot to bring their rain coats. I guess it's fun to watch at least. But I'm mostly here to discuss my GH1 and how to get the most out of it.
 
First GH1 video I saw was P. Bloom's at Re: Frame Austin and it blew my mind. Anyway I think the issue that myself and others had with the 7D video was that this was more than just a few shots that they stuck on a page, it was an actual, produced, thought out, video that required complex location shooting, etc.....and yet looked pretty lousy.
 
it's still frames like these that make me terrified to ever shoot anything in 1080 on my GH1 again. i was shooting 1080 with the stock lens with an ND filter on and everything set to manual.

Screenshot2009-09-02at12452AM.png


Screenshot2009-09-02at12517AM.png


Screenshot2009-09-02at12538AM.png
 
Ben_B said:
First GH1 video I saw was P. Bloom's at Re: Frame Austin and it blew my mind. Anyway I think the issue that myself and others had with the 7D video was that this was more than just a few shots that they stuck on a page, it was an actual, produced, thought out, video that required complex location shooting, etc.....and yet looked pretty lousy.
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which video are you talking about?
 
paulgandersman said:
it's still frames like these that make me terrified to ever shoot anything in 1080 on my GH1 again. i was shooting 1080 with the stock lens with an ND filter on and everything set to manual.
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Ilya will have about three months to retool his production for the 7D.
 
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