The Pro's Choice: EX1 & 3

[FrankC]

Article in American Cinematographer (Mar.09) highlighted the "Cutting Edge Camerawork" of four pro Directors of Photography on episodic television shows such as Dexter, The Usuals, etc. Two shows still shot in 35mm with Panavision cameras, but two were now shooting with the $200,000 Sony F23... AND the EX1 or an EX3. Roy Wagner,ASC, DP on The Usuals noted the EX1 is not the same 4-4-4 color space as the F23, but the EX's have such a substantial processing capability, they inter-cut seamlessly with their $200k bretheren. He went on to say "I love film but...I'd love to shoot a series using only the EXs".
With the pros, there is not a Panasonic or JVC in sight...

 

[adamr316]

I love my EX1 but a post like this is gonna start a flame war. So to help diffuse this thread, let's just agree that it's safe to say our cameras are all being used in some professional capacity.

Panasonics were/are used on a number of documentaries. PBS and HBO come to mind. The HVX was used in more than a few major Hollywood releases. So let's not go there.

So indeed, the EX series are substantial workhorses and are excellent cameras, no doubt. But lets not pretend it's the only prosumer cams being used now!

 

[DeeKay]

I like to think for myself and judge a camera by its output, not by what magazine articles say or how many pros are using what. Some folks make an HVX look good and others make it look bad. But any idiot can make good looking Red One footage. If you don't like a camera than you probably just don't know how to light for it or something.

 

[cheezweezl]

With the pros, there is not a Panasonic or JVC in sight...

I too love my EX but to say that Pro's don't use Panny or JVC is just not true.

Tons and tons of TV content is shot with the HVX200 every day. I know of a few music videos on MTV that have been shot with the HVX. It was used in the movie "Cloverfield" among others.

I left my HVX200 behind and truly believe the EX blows it away but others will certainly argue with me on this point. The EX's are gaining popularity but there will always be a large number of "pros" that shoot Panny, etc.

But any idiot can make good looking Red One footage.

Idiot? not so much. The RED may look good even under less than perfect lighting but that doesn't mean an idiot can make it work. There is no auto anything on the red so unless you have a good understanding of how lenses work, you're gonna be pissing in the wind. It takes a ton of skill just to keep your subject in focus. You pretty much have to have the discipline needed to shoot film to properly use the red. A novice would have better luck with an HVX200 or an EX1. At least either one of these cams can be put into full auto mode and still look decent.

 

[Spartacus]

But any idiot can make good looking Red One footage.

I doubt you would say this, if you had actually shot with it...

These articles always give me an awkward feeling:
we all here KNOW what the EX1 or HVX are capable of. And we always know it much EARLIER than the guys doing the really big jobs, because normally for them it´s just "rent whatever gets the job done". Camera rental costs become almost neglectable considering the total expanses for producing a network show.

It´s like the pad on the shoulder, that´s more reprehensive than commendatory, altough everybody is smiling...:huh:

 

[Huy Vu]

But any idiot can make good looking Red One footage.

The trailer below was shot using a RED One, you tell me if any idiot can make good looking footage.

http://video.ak.facebook.com/video-ak-sf2p/v2685/175/105/1083856294665_20384.mp4

 

[samphibbs]

Yeah good example of nasty looking red footage. I have really seen some garbage from the red one, but like others have said it is not the camera rather the operator who really makes the footage what it is.

 

[navitas]

I think in general there only a few things that can actually be marked as being demanded for a camera to be treated as "pro". In my opinion these are: DoF, progressive scan and delivery format. DoF is basically an optics factor and can be achieved from 35mm adapters. Progressive scan is starting to be a standard of some sorts (even in consumer market). The only problem for me right now is delivery format. We are all victims of compression. That's where RED for me is a winner. The raw format these cameras produce (without a need for an external HD-SDI device) is unbelievable. But other then that you can still mimic film even on Canon's 5d.

I had an opportunity to make a full-length documentary on my beloved XH-A1 and I had sh$%-loads of problems with delivery. First of all (at least where I live) broadcast market is ruled by Sony and nobody actually heard about my little cam being used in TV industry. Then Canon's 25f format is not readable in other company's miniDV decks so the transfer was possible only from my cam. Finally when I had a complete edit TV heads woudn't accept footage in HDV format so I had to transfer everything onto Digital BETA. And I had a terrible fear that the film wouldn't be accepted by this "technological control department". Happily the film passed everything but I learned my lesson: no HDV in TV land. Even though you get movies shot with XH-A1 (Crank 2) these camera choices are made mainly on requirements.

So right now I'm thinking of making another documentary and I'll go with EX1. Because of the reliable XDCAM. But... DVCPRO in HVX200 is also a great format. You choose your equipment by your needs and needs of the production. To say: "only EX1 is pro" is like saying: "you can only win this race in a Ferrari - if you drive Porsche... man... You gonna loose..." And the truth is: Even in Lamborghini if you have an idiot driver you gonna finish the race on the first turn...

 

[FrankC]

Adam is right... And I do apologize if I tossed some accellerant on the fire. Wasn't my intention. I was not saying other cameras are not as good. I was simply remarking about the "fact" regarding the choices being made by veterans "in the business". One can take from what what they may in the choice of camera they may want to use that is appropriate for the work they plan to do. It would be foolish to make a judgment on those choices since every project is different with different requirements.
But thank you all for chiming in... Shows we have a vibrant community out there.

 

[Cranky]

First of all (at least where I live) broadcast market is ruled by Sony and nobody actually heard about my little cam being used in TV industry. Then Canon's 25f format is not readable in other company's miniDV decks so the transfer was possible only from my cam.

Canon's "F" is the same as Sony's Native Progressive Recording, only Canon was two years earlier in the game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#HDV_1080p

Happily the film passed everything but I learned my lesson: no HDV in TV land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Use_of_HDV_in_broadcast_television

 

[Huy Vu]

I think navitas' point was that the Canon F mode isn't readable in anything except for Canon camera so compatibility was an issue.

 

[Cranky]

I think navitas' point was that the Canon F mode isn't readable in anything except for Canon camera so compatibility was an issue.

If you cared to follow the link that I posted in my reply to navitas, you would have found out that this is not correct.

 

[Huy Vu]

If you cared to follow the link that I posted in my reply to navitas, you would have found out that this is not correct.

So you linked to the HDV entry on Wikipedia, so what? It's a fact that Canon progressive F modes are not readable on anything except for Canon HDV cameras. I should know, I own an A1.

 

[dadoboy]

I'd just like to point out that episodic TV is killing the film business more than anything. I would say half to 3/4 of shows now shoot digital. It's making a huge difference in the they way they do business over at technicolor and deluxe (though kudos to them - they saw this coming and changed a lot of their business model and seem to be doing OK).

 

[basspig]

My two cents from watching my own EX1 footage on a 154" screen, projected by a 30-bit projection system, as viewed from 96" away...

There is not a Blu-ray movie that I have rented in the past month, nor one in my collection, that equals or bests the quality of the images I am getting from my EX1.

I used to complain about a little bit of chromatic aberration at full tele, but I'm seeing tons of it in major motion pictures of the last 17 years.

The detail and clarity far exceeds all of the Blu-ray discs that were mastered from film.

The Fujinon lens really aquits itself well and the footage looks great, even after watching a major motion picture shot digitally and transferred to Blu-ray.

Seeing EX footage on a huge screen, up close, so it wraps around your entire field of view, really puts things in a new perspective. I'm seeing flaw after flaw in Hollywood footage, but the flaws are little to nonexistent in the EX footage. More detail, more dynamic range, far less noise/grain--in every respect, a top notch image.

And now that I'm experimenting with Detail Off and post detail enhancement, I'm getting even better images. I can only imaging what HD-SDI output would look like, rendered to QT Photo JPEG!

 

[Cranky]

So you linked to the HDV entry on Wikipedia, so what? It's a fact that Canon progressive F modes are not readable on anything except for Canon HDV cameras. I should know, I own an A1.

So you did not care to follow the link, so what. Who am I to explain you what "F" modes are about and what are they compatible with.

 

[Huy Vu]

So you did not care to follow the link, so what. Who am I to explain you what "F" modes are about and what are they compatible with.

Oh I've read it. And you'll understand if I don't put much stock in a public encyclopedia where anybody can just update anonymously (in fact, I can just change it right now if I wanted to). Real world experience trumps Wikipedia any time. Let me just ask you one thing: have you ever try to capture Canon F mode footage using a Sony HDV camera? If you were successful I would love to hear about it, since it didn't work the times I actually tried it out.

But hey, since you love to quote from Wikipedia, here's an entry for you and a quote from it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_XL_H1

"1080i60 and 1080i50 are cross-compatible with Sony's implementation of HDV; Canon 1080i50 and 1080i60 can play on Sony HDV cameras and decks. Canon's 24f, 25f, and 30f are not cross-compatible with Sony's implementation of HDV. No 1080 HDV footage will play on JVC HDV cameras or decks."

 

[navitas]

I think the problem which cam plays which material is not a good reason to argue

Anyway... I tried playing 25f footage from Sony's Z1 and there is no way it's working. I don't know about newer Sony cams so I'm not gonna argue. I think the problem isn't in cams but in decks. Usually if you have a cam with you, you can always use it to transfer material. But... If you rent it you're stuck with tapes not playable in Sony decks and since Canon doesn't make any decks chances are in editing studio you'll be forced to rent the cam again just to transfer the footage.

I guess It isn't such a problem for documentaries etc but it kinda crosses XHA1 25f out of ENG
world forcing broadcasters to have at least HV10 in their editing bays (aside from having Sony HDV decks )

But as I mentioned... Choose your camera carefully. At the time I was making the movie, XH-A1 was the HDV-cam making the most beautiful and crisp footage, that made people at test-screenings ask me If it was really HDV. For me, even with problems mentioned above, XH-A1 was a clear choice. It gave me a nice picture with not a lot of cash with possibilities to make re-edits on my consumer laptop.

Right now my choice is either EX1 with 35mm or Scarlet (Oh... The Scarlet... ) and I have time till the end of this year to make a decision

But everyone has their own expectations and their own requirements (including user interface) that can make them choose some cams above others and believe me... If the DP is any good... They'll make it work

 

[Cranky]

Oh I've read it. And you'll understand if I don't put much stock in a public encyclopedia where anybody can just update anonymously (in fact, I can just change it right now if I wanted to). Real world experience trumps Wikipedia any time. Let me just ask you one thing: have you ever try to capture Canon F mode footage using a Sony HDV camera? If you were successful I would love to hear about it, since it didn't work the times I actually tried it out.

Yes, anyone can change it, but reliable entries usually have references. Here are a couple real-world examples for you:

http://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/read.php?1,237084,237086

I went and shot a myriad of format types of footage with my Canon....

i used my Sony HVR M15AU to digitize said footage (firewire 400)....

all of the footage was able to be captured onto my MBP FCP2 with minor machine control issues...

when Digitizing SD 24F, 60I, and 30F at 16:9 i was able to use the FCP Capture tool with machine control under the Firewire NTSC Device Control..

When Digitizing HD 60I, 30F, and 24F I could use Apple intermediate codec, and Prores 422, but I could not get machine control..

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/129531-sony-hvr-m15au-xh-xl-series.html

Just tested the XHA1 tape recorded at both 24f and 30f in the sony hvr-m15au deck. It worked perfectly.

But hey, since you love to quote from Wikipedia, here's an entry for you and a quote from it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_XL_H1

"1080i60 and 1080i50 are cross-compatible with Sony's implementation of HDV; Canon 1080i50 and 1080i60 can play on Sony HDV cameras and decks. Canon's 24f, 25f, and 30f are not cross-compatible with Sony's implementation of HDV. No 1080 HDV footage will play on JVC HDV cameras or decks."

Old info, gotta update it

 

[Barry_Green]

No Sony camcorder, that I know of, can play Canon 24F footage, except maybe the very newest one. A Z1U, FX1, etc., definitely can't.

No Sony deck, other than the new HVR-M15AU, can play back Canon 24F footage.

Canon invented their own format when they added 24F. Nobody supported it, for years no deck could play it.

Sony recently adopted straight 24p recording, apparently compatibly with Canon's 24F implementation. So the very most recent cameras and decks that support Sony 24P (instead of 24p-over-60i) can apparently also play Canon 24F mode.