The Panasonic G1HD | GH-1 Video Mode : A Real Video Mode

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

1/48 and 1/50 will have some blur but are the most filmic.

Blurry or not is a bit oversimplified. Video often has motion blur and this is usually the reason you don't want to drop shutter down to 1/24 for more light - it will be blurry and look videoy because it has blur.

As for no blur - I don't think the fight scenes in Gladiator look videoy because there's no blur / they were shot at a high shutter speed.

I usually think of blur as videoy. And you can certainly crank the heck out of film shutterspeed until there is zero blur, like gladiator etc.

But the closest shutter speed to film will be 1/48 or 1/50. It will not be blur free or super blurry but will have an amount of blur that looks most like the way film is shot 90% of the time.

 

[Ian-T]

Ok. But I was really referring to filming for slow motion. I guess a 180 degree shutter for 50p would be 1/100 and that is what I believe Philip Bloom "might" have shot the clip in. For 25p...yes...it should be 1/50 for that filmic motion blur. But I don't use PAL so what do I know.

Good point about Gladiator....and Saving Private Ryan for that matter.

 

[AdrianF]

I think this clip showed that the camera could be used for ENG type work in an uncontrolled environment, typically what we're getting used to seeing more and more of on TV. I was pretty surprised that it held up as well as it did in this kind of situation.

 

[GregGory]

Mattias (and those who think the GH1 looks like video) I've seen your trailer and virtually all GH1 footies on the net. I think I do understand what your concerns are with the GH1 look.

I've been following the Panansonic still cameras since the FZ5 when I decided to get a small camera that wouldn't scare people like my Canon DSLRs. I LOVED the FZ5 output straight form the camera. The colours were a bit warm, suttle, and even the noise characteristics mimicked film grain more than most other still cams. Olympus owners liked the Panasonic look a lot, while the Canon and Sony (point and shoot, has nothing to do with Canon/Sony DSLRs or DV look) camps dissed it for not having punchy reds and blues. The next generation of Panasonic still cameras had much more punchy default settings, which gave the "scorched pig skin look" for Caucasians. It was way over the top for my liking which was also confirmed by Imatest (colour trueness test). The latest default look - incl. the GH1 - is a bit less punchy, but the white balance is cooler. The output sometimes reminds me of a 'funky techno' look. Definitely not filmic in my book, especially the very 'digital' high default contrast in most of the videos I've seen. The high contrast very often oversaturates some delicate tones that cannot be brought back in PP easily (eg. Philip's first clip at 1:27 & 2:17)

The good news is, no matter how cartoonish the default look was in these Panasonics, there was always some setting that could actually give the lightly retro look of the FZ5. I haven't seen the GH1 manual yet, but the G1 almost has an infinite number of colour settings, not only the 'film modes', contrast, intelligent contrast, saturation, but a very useful WB tool:

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_LX3/images/menus/PanaLX3_WB_adjust.jpg

If this feature is enabled in video mode, I'm quite confident almost everybody can get within range to the look they want to pursuit, in terms of colours at least. Maybe one of the owners can confirm whether this function is enabled.

The default output of the D90 undoubtedly offers a more filmic look. Working with the GH1 will probably require more attention to the in-camera settings before shooting, and maybe compression leaves less latitude for post processing the highlight roll off and shadows than the D90, so the trick will be to tweak the GH1 on the set prior to shooting, and leave less for PP. I think the GH1 is one of those cameras what one needs to be test in person extensively before the final judgement can be made. Hence it will disappoint many initial fans and win over a lot of initial sceptics.

Judging by Panasonic's record in the still camera division, there won't be any extra goodies coming in terms of enabled HDMI-out, and higher bitrate. More precisely, these upgrades are already in the pipeline, called the GH2.. Ok, once Panasonic did enable extra features in firmware, the FZ1 got Aperture and Shutter priority, but Panasonic charged around 55 USD for it! rogar-Shock(DBG): 55 bux isn't the end of the world, but does indicate what the company thinks about enabling features.

 

[Kholi]

The default output of the D90 undoubtedly offers a more filmic look. Working with the GH1 will probably require more attention to the in-camera settings before shooting, and maybe compression leaves less latitude for post processing the highlight roll off and shadows than the D90, so the trick will be to tweak the GH1 on the set prior to shooting, and leave less for PP. I think the GH1 is one of those cameras what one needs to be test in person extensively before the final judgement can be made. Hence it will disappoint many initial fans and win over a lot of initial sceptics.

I like GregGory.

And yeah, that Function is in the camera. =D

 

[Boz]

Kholi, I have a few questions regarding the 60P to 24P scenario that you're touting...

1. Why shoot at 720-60P for 24P? Is that easier to convert from 60 to 24P over 30P to 24P?

2. How does you convert from 60P to 24P?

3. Doesn't shooting at 60P limit you to using 1/60 shutter speed (after all you can't keep the shutter open longer than the frame rate) - and doesn't that negate the 'film look' somewhat?

4. Any chance you can post a short motion clip that's been converted from 60P to 24P? I'm skeptical at the moment.

And given all this now I REALLY wish they would've given us 720-24P!! I think I want that now more than 1080-24P w/o the wrapper.

Thanks!

 

[Kholi]

Kholi, I have a few questions regarding the 60P to 24P scenario that you're touting...

1. Why shoot at 720-60P for 24P? Is that easier to convert from 60 to 24P over 30P to 24P?

I literally dropped the 60P into a 23.98 ProRes timeline and I can't tell, man. Not a single bit. This versus Pulldown? I'm happy with the former.

2. How does you convert from 60P to 24P?

Literally drop it on a 23.98 HD ProRes Timeline, turn off Frame Blending on the clip, Render.

3. Doesn't shooting at 60P limit you to using 1/60 shutter speed (after all you can't keep the shutter open longer than the frame rate) - and doesn't that negate the 'film look' somewhat?

I can use a 1/30 shutter, 1/40 shutter but Daniel L had a good point: it doesn't sound right. It certainly doesn't make things look bad to me which probably means it's NOT exactly what it's shooting at. Seriously, it looks like genuine 24P man. Real soon, just hold out and I'll post. Or maybe Hunter has some footage he can post. I just do not want to post up any old thing, there're too many repercussion on these boards when you do that.
4. Any chance you can post a short motion clip that's been converted from 60P to 24P? I'm skeptical at the moment.

And given all this now I REALLY wish they would've given us 720-24P!! I think I want that now more than 1080-24P w/o the wrapper.

Thanks!

720/24P AVC-HD, 720/24P Motion JPEG, 1080/24P Motion JPEG would be awesome.

 

[Boz]

Ok, once Panasonic did enable extra features in firmware, the FZ1 got Aperture and Shutter priority, but Panasonic charged around 55 USD for it! rogar-Shock(DBG): 55 bux isn't the end of the world, but does indicate what the company thinks about enabling features.

I would pay money for a higher bitrate and 720-24P mode (no wrapper) firmware update. rogar-Happy(DBG):

 

[Kholi]

Yeah, honestly I'd be happy to anti-up some more money for a 1080/24P no wrapper and the rest of it!

 

[Boz]

I literally dropped the 60P into a 23.98 ProRes timeline and I can't tell, man. Not a single bit. This versus Pulldown? I'm happy with the former.

Literally drop it on a 23.98 HD ProRes Timeline, turn off Frame Blending on the clip, Render.

Hmm, thanks. I'm going to have to play with this when I get home.

 

[Kholi]

Remember, 60P not 60i.

 

[squig]

back into the fray

Hey Kholi if you're not feeling tested, here's a 30p to 24p workflow you could try on the mjpeg http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1557941&postcount=177

Now on the film look I think it comes down to 2 things. What you're seeing and perceiving visually but also something that is going on inside the archive in your head that is telling you something looks filmic. Frame rate and shallow DOF are a big part of it and the GH1 has that covered so if it doesn't look quite filmic what is it? Well there's also dynamic range, Hunter mentioned that it's limited on the GH1. But I'm also thinking that intraframe compression might have something to do with our brains perception of a filmic look. I noticed in sonics cat footage there is constant movement in the cats fur between it's eyes. I don't know if this appears in the raw footage or not but even if it isn't perceptible to the eye it might be enough for our brains "film memory bank" to reject it as film.

I come from a sound background and the analog vs digital debate has gone on longer than the Kholi Matt love story. We strive to re-create the warmth of analog and there's no doubt that the D90 despite its flaws has that warmth so why is that? Well could it be that mjpeg is true 24fps interframe which our brains readily accept as film?

As a lot of us D90 shooters are seriously considering the GH1 this is a debate we had to have and I value what Kholi and Matt both have to say, without their input my film would probably only look half as good. So as long as its a robust debate and they're not abusing each other can we keep the thread open. We're all big girls here and can look after ourselves. ps it's also really amusing eating my breakfeast watching them go on like girlymen

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Ok. But I was really referring to filming for slow motion. I guess a 180 degree shutter for 50p would be 1/100 and that is what I believe Philip Bloom "might" have shot the clip in. For 25p...yes...it should be 1/50 for that filmic motion blur. But I don't use PAL so what do I know.

Good point about Gladiator....and Saving Private Ryan for that matter.

yeah I think that's right for slow mo

 

[Boz]

Remember, 60P not 60i.

I'm going to use the 60P train footage that was uploaded recently. That should show any tell tale weird motion artifacts from dropped frames.

 

[LizaWitz]

Old primes are not the nonplusultra, but there are enough good videos with primes (look Phil Bloom, vimeo)

http://www.vimeo.com/4441911
http://www.vimeo.com/4405518

FWIW, both of those were shot with the "slow" kit lens!

 

[Kholi]

I'm going to use the 60P train footage that was uploaded recently. That should show any tell tale weird motion artifacts from dropped frames.

I don't know how that was uploaded. But try it for sure. As far as I know FCP isn't doing too well without the file hierarchy.

You can probably try this with 60P footage from an HVX?

 

[Kholi]

back into the fray

Hey Kholi if you're not feeling tested, here's a 30p to 24p workflow you could try on the mjpeg http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1557941&postcount=177

Several more steps to do, but it works that's for sure. Looks like 23P to me, with some ghosting. But that's probably because it was a 1/60th shutter.

I like the 60P 23.98 Timeline a little better, looks smoother to me and, well, several steps less.

This is a great alternative though. Thanks for sharing. Bookmarked.

 

[squig]

which is faster?

and what looks more filmic?

 

[christophersj]

Hey Kholi if you're not feeling tested, here's a 30p to 24p workflow you could try on the mjpeg http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1557941&postcount=177

Wow. I work in 24p documentary and have been vexed by the 30p to 24 conversion (the most difficult of the frame rate conversions) for some time. Using Compressor's High Quality settings alone gave me the best result so far (even besting the Nattress plug-ins for quality). But this method above takes the cake.

I'm a stickler for quality, and this method you linked to was as good as sex. You just made my week. For high end documentary, that's even more important than the issue of video on DSLRs!

 

[Kholi]

What? The 60P to 23.98 is obviously faster.

And they both look pretty much the same, with the 30P convesion looking a bit stuttery.

The 60P > 23.98 is smoother.