FS7: The necessity of choosing a LUT or Scene File for some shoots

Doug Jensen

Doug Jensen

Carbonite Member
MLUTS vs. Scene Files Comparison Tests with the PXW-FS7: http://www.vortexmedia.com/LUTS_VS_SCENE_FILES.html

I thank everyone who contributed their comments to the test videos that I posted earlier this week. So, here are the details of what you were looking at, along with my analysis, but as always, I suggest you come to your own conclusions. I'll add a test with skintones and a face as soon as I can, but it's not going to change the results one bit. I've already done enough comparisons between Scene Files and LUTS over the past two years with the F55, and now the FS7, to know exactly what further testing will show.

Sometimes we can't avoid using WYSIWYG settings for certain clients. That is a fact of life. Plus I've done network live shots with my F55, so how am I supposed to grade that in post? It is essential to have settings that look good right out of the camera for those times when you need them. Anyone who says otherwise is living in a different world from where I work.
 
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Thanks for this Doug, the results are very interesting.

Funny thing is, I've been using your B-Roll scene file on the last 3 shoots where I had to hand in footage that wasn't going to be graded, and I chose that scene file twice on your test.
 
Doug, That's the most useful set of tests that I can remember seeing here in some time. Thank You.

I think it would be very interesting to do a similar set with an interview set-up with flesh tones, though this is coming from a guy who shoots a lot of talking heads. 709TypeA often looks a little washed out to me, but admittedly i need to do more testing.

As criminally unPC as it may sound I often find that Std gamma gives me the nicest facial tones though I haven't had a chance to really compare against 709Type A enough yet. Recently did a shoot where we found the hypergammas tended to put compression on caucasian faces especially if they were at all shiny- and that was just not as pleasing. Perhaps that's because the client wanted WYSISWYG and hypergammas should actually be exposed a little under according to Alister Chapman. Of course I am one of those older DP's used to painting the camera to the shot on set, and I might adjust to each person even if the background stays the same all day.

It would be interesting to put the Alexa recording its own LUT in there as well.

lenny
 
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A LUT is imho a kind of Preview for how the footage might look after grading.
LUTs are not really meant to cover every situation.

If you think LC709A is to hot in the highlights, why not build another LUT with more highlight headroom in Resolve or Catalyst?
It is that easy!

More or less the same obtains for scene files.
Scene files are more flexible on set, as you can alwayst adjus them in camera. This is quick and liberating and can lead to very good in camera images, as Doug proved here.

For me, it's just easier to control my image via LUT with Resolve, where I have the tools and controls that I need and know well.

YMMV
 
Erik Wittbusch said:
A LUT is imho a kind of Preview for how the footage might look after grading.
Click to expand...

If you have ever spent a week punching the wall trying to 'tune' a Sony camera using the menu (as I did with my FS100) one can also see that a LUT may be a fine manner of setting up the camera for baked shooting to those of us not that confident in the Sony menus.

S
 
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Of course you can and I do that, too.

But at this moment custom mode with scene files simply gives you more options incl. manual WB, noise reduction, exposure tools...
And that's why I will also try to do at least 2or 3 scene files for special clients or low light shooting.
 
Is a link available for Dougs scene files I'd like to try them out.

The FS7 is rated at ISO 2000 in Cine EI should we still rate it at 2000 when using these scene files ? INTERVIEWS-1 uses STD gamma where as B-ROLL-1 uses HG8 does the native ISO change for the base gamma used by the scene files.

Thank you for doing the test Doug. For the amount of time this took and services to the Sony user community I am nominating you for for a knighthood/OBE :)

Surinder.
 
No, I'm not going provide the specifics of my scene file settings because they would be useless unless you also understand how exposure and white balance should be set, which is too complicated to do here. That's why I put hundreds of hours into producing a 6-hour video and a 150-page book that does all that for me and covers the FS7 scene file settings in detail. I want people to try to understand WHAT the Paint menus are doing so they start to get a better understanding of the camera rather that just dialing in somone else's settings. That's why people generally like my training materials, because I explain how/why/when and not just spew put a bunch of settings. Giving people scene files with no explanastion is a little like giving a chef a list of ingredients for a recipe -- while fialing to give them any instructions about how to put the ingredients together, how to cook them, at what temperature, etc.

You know what they say about teaching a man to fish . . .
 
I guess we all have different needs on how to provide material to clients. I've been delivering only LOG files to my clients so far and provided the LC709A LUT file for them to use. Eventually I will run into a client that needs footage without grading and for that I will bake in the LC709A LUT and be done with it.

During the years I've done so much in camera fiddling with settings to get it right and when I started shooting with the F3 in locked S-log mode it felt great to do it all in post instead.
 
Your Scene Files made LC709A look like a washed out DSLR profile you try to make to get as much latitude as possible on those 8bit images. Impressive. If you ever do consider releasing those files, let us know! Maybe do an instructional video with a secret download link on how to use them and charge for both?
 
I'll breakdown my choices with the results.

Appears I liked (comparing voting record to revealed results)

Raisins
Liked:
B-roll1 (HG8) - I do use this from time to time when I need a baked in look and WB in custom for lower DR scenes. I use this for punchy colourful product stuff but haven't on people much. I prefer LC709TypeA with people (and some adjustments)
Oskar_FC03 (user lut) - I liked the this look for low contrast and for some reason it didn't look as magenta as it did in the other tests with it. I was sure this one was LC709-A
disliked:
Universal ungraded - well that makes sense why ungraded footage would stand out as bad.

House:
Liked: B-roll1 (HG8) - I guess I like this one. as I picked it now twice.
disliked: Oskar_FC3 - Its odd how I found this over the top magenta here but liked it in the raisin one.

Fruit:
Liked:
LC-709typeA - I use this one a lot when I shoot CineEI. Its my usual go to low contrast look to start but I don't usually use it straight as is.
Oskar_FC3 - I commented that I liked this one if the magenta was dialed down a bunch. Which fits my impressions of the it in the other test.
Universal-1 graded - I sorta liked this. I could see it used for punchy product or colourful contrasty shots but it was a little too much for me. dialed back I could see it working. I have this one loaded into my camera but don't use it much. When I shoot Slog3 I usually shoot CineEI.

I think its clear that I like LC709-TypeA in CineEI for certain types of material. Stuff that is softer in more complex scenes and ones I am doing post as I don't use LC709-typeA straight up. I think its also clear that I like B-roll HG8 which I currently use in custom for punchy video results and has been my go to for handing off footage which I don't do that often.

Thanks Doug for taking the time to do this exercise. It was very revealing as to where my tastes lie.
cheers
 
I think what this test really shows is the advantage of grading. I liked something different for every scene and everyone's (including producers and clients) tastes are different. For instance B-Roll 1 was the most liked overall and the most liked for the fruit scene and that was my least favourite for the fruit scene. The candle highlight was downright ugly I thought.

Different strokes for different folks. As far as handing footage off to clients that will not be graded, I guess the LUT or the scene file 100% depends on what you are shooting. If you are going from an indoor interview to outside to product shots all on one shoot that requires different looks, and that is tough to switch back and forth between all in one shoot without having a prep day to test the locations or having enough time to try a few different scene files or LUTS on the day, which probably won't happen with the fast paced nature of this business. So I come back to grading.
 
Hi Doug,

Many thanks for this work. Excellent, and your recent article too. I am out of the country at the moment and didn't read your posting until now.

I think I would concur with its findings. I have found your B Roll very useful in the recent past.

Just to broaden this debate: I know your work is not intended to be definitive, far from it, rather than a non-scientific small-scale poll, but you and some of the contributors might like to follow through in the work of Fernandez & Fairchild's study in cultural responses to differing scenes. For example and to paraphrase (See Table 4 in the paper): the study found observers from the Americas prefer a lesser saturated scene than those from the eastern hemisphere; Japanese observers prefer warmer looking images compared to those from North America. Clearly this impacts into a global market whereby a viewer's culture provides for a variance in colour preference. Their published work can be found at:

http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1145&context=other

The bottom line, for most (colourist/producers) supplying a global or audience of a differing culture, it's useful to do a little research into the target audiences' preference first. My simple two cents worth for further study into what is a complex subject.

Claire
 
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While not a definitive work, the referenced piece sure opens some very interesting considerations and further work.
Thanx for sharing this.
 
Doug's tests seem somewhat flawed to me.

Many of the Sony Looks (MLUTS) and especially LC709-A inherently have raised blacks which for one will create such subjectivity about where/how to properly expose for it if you just use WYSIWYG. Secondly it means that if you exposed for the proper underlying slog value the blacks most of the time will have to be adjusted back in post to proper levels. Most people wouldn't call a small nudge of the blacks in post "grading".

Even though the goal of the test was to show which footage looked its best "straight out of camera" without any grading, if you wanted to be honest with yourself you'd know that LC709-A does need some correction later. You could modify the MLUT and load it back into camera for a true "straight out of camera" look but obviously the goal of this test was to make the MLUT look inferior or inadequate.
 
Oh come on Dennis, I know you are smarter than that. There are many people on this forum and other forums who say they bake in the LC709TypeA LUT for a WYSIWYG look with no grading in post. Do I really need to quote them? Whether you or I agree with that approach or not does not make the test flawed -- people are doing it!!

I used the LUT exactly how some people say they use it, and used an exposure that other people recommended. If the LUT sucked, don't blame it on he messenger. And just because the LUT makes a poor choice for WYSIWYG does not imply that is not perfectly adequate with a little work in post. I can't believe I even need to write this post. Come on.
 
Doug,

On a related note, I just watched your chapter on MLUTS and at the end, you mentioned that using a monitor lut can affect how you expose because the camera uses the zebras in the viewfinder for exposure. If I'm shooting in SLOG3 and have a Cine709 Mlut in the viewfinder, should I set the zebras at 61%, or higher?
 
mainstreetprod said:
Doug,

On a related note, I just watched your chapter on MLUTS and at the end, you mentioned that using a monitor lut can affect how you expose because the camera uses the zebras in the viewfinder for exposure. If I'm shooting in SLOG3 and have a Cine709 Mlut in the viewfinder, should I set the zebras at 61%, or higher?
Click to expand...

Well, it depends.

First, it depends on which LUT or Look Profile you are using, because each one is different.

Second, it depends if you are recording the LUT and need it to look good for a WYSIWYG workflow, or if you are recording regular S-LOG and just using the LUT for monitoring. If you are NOT recording the LUT, then you need to make sure the zebra settings you choose do not lead you to under or over expose the S-LOG.

I give specific recommendations for each LUT on page 98 of my FS7 book, but I felt that was a little too complicated for the video. If you tell me specifically which LUT or LP your using, I will be happy to tell you what my recommendation is.

On the other hand, if you ARE recording the LUT, then it is just a matter of personal taste as to what looks like the right exposure.
 
Doug,

I'm not recording the LUT. Usually I use the Rec709A MLUT, but I'm today I'm trying out Cine709. What zebra % do you recommend?
 
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