"The Music Box" - a Michael Anthony Horrigan Film

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Hey Michael.

I liked the grandmother and Daniel's acting. She had almost a fairy tale delivery to her vocal quality and I thought Daniel was pretty engaging and natural.

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT

I liked the tone of the story very much, but I guess I'm in the minority judging from the last few posts but the ending didn't seem intentionally open ended at all to me, just confusing. There was nothing in her demeanor that said she'd taken any kind of evasive action or was ready ... in fact, her eyes pop open wide when the abusive guy comes in ... also she seems passive, not like someone that's laid a trap ... and why if she's seen her future, would she ever move in with the guy that's gonna kill her, or the true love, or that she has to kill ... just makes no sense at all to me. Sorry I don't get it.

I think for an open ending to work a la the French Connection or Constance, say. That either the options for the ambiguity have to be clear or it's likely that things will go on much the same, as in No Country or Lost in Translation. At the end of French Connection when we hear the shot in the dark, we know either Hakman was shot or the bad guy was shot, or possibly it was a stray shot and the bad guy gets away (the ending which would jive with the true life source material).

But you know what the characaters want or are going after when that up in the air ending comes. Hackman wants the bad guy, Murray wants a connection, Jones wants meaning.

Here I had no idea what she wanted, it seemed that she saw her death or some tragedy in the mirror as a girl and then marched reluctantly towards it. If she took any steps to do anything about it I couldn't see it. It's one thing to say people are smart and don't have to be spoon fed but you have to actually put some meaning, some suggestion of purpose on the screen, and again I didn't see anything like that. To me the story boiled down to ... "your gonna make out with your true love and your boyfriend will come in and something terrible will happen ..." ... and then she meets the guy from the vision, they move in together, she endures abuse, and waits for a tragedy which she has foreseen to go right ahead and happen ??? She just seems sad about being stuck ... but then again shocked to see the abusive guy come in ... makes zero sense to me ... sorry don't mean to go on and on, but I get confused even trying to follow any thread of logic to write about it.

So not to harp. But because I feel like I'm having difficulty being clear, I don't object to the ending being open, but when the ending came I felt like you had done zero to tell us where the chess pieces were on the board and what the most important chess piece, your protag, wanted and why. Just utterly confused and lost.

Incidentally, I'm recutting Unawakening to make some things clearer for a larger audience. Not talking down to the audience is noble but remember its a communication process and you have to be willing to re-examine the encoding if your getting back a certain percentage of confusion in the decoding.

I liked the tone and feel and general concept and particularly Daniel's acting. But I found the piece as a whole to be much weaker than Joel 3:15.

Looking forward to your next piece.

Jack

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

BTW, taking another look, I do like a lot of the camera movement very much, just as I did in Joel 3:15.

SPOILERS
As I said, I took another look and I think see at least what you were going for ... that she's resigned to an awful fate ... really listening to each line on a second viewing "do you think you can change something that happened in the pat" (but we're not talking about the past, we're talking about something she saw in the past but which hasn't happened yet) "Somethings are just meant to happen" OK so I get your thematic territory ... but there's two problems I think, 1) plausibility in terms of human behavior and 2) her performance. Regarding 1) features are made and novels are written about people trying to change a foretold bad fate. I'm halfway through Koontz's Odd Thomas right now, about a 20 year old fry cook that sees dead people and other phenomenon and everyone is going out of their minds trying to stop what they think will be a bowling alley masacre based on a few fragments of visions and evidence ... so why would she put this guy she loves in the middle of a jackpot ... I just don't think people march toward doom, and especially put their new found loved ones in the middle of it. Regarding 2) her performance ... maybe she didn't have the skill or you and she didn't nail it together to pull off "I'm marching towards disaster with my one true love for the few moments of life I will have with him" She seemed sad when the true love came over, then just happy to make out with him, and then again surprised when the boyfriend came in ... so maybe that is character arc / performance problems not tracking with the given circumstances of the world you've set up.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Cool flick man. I liked the concept/story. I was on edge with the whole boyfriend coming back bit, something bad is going to happen. I liked the interaction between the girl and the neighbor, but not so much the girl and the boyfriend. The little girl was really good I thought; I know it's hard to find kid actors who don't constantly overact.

I like how we don't see what happens...maybe she knew it was coming, saw her future, etc. I think it might have been cool had the little girl's reaction been a little more subtle (not sure if that's the right word heh). I feel like she saw her own death or 'his' death, but if she had seen that, wouldn't she take preventative action? I've had numerous, long, in depth, 'timetravelesq', see the future ability' conversations so all these questions and 'what ifs' immediately come to mind. I love ambiguity, so kudos on the ending

Thanks so much, glad you liked it.

SPOILER
FULL EXPLANATION FOLLOWS:

The entire point is what did she see? That's really up to the viewer.
My take/intention is as follows. The movie has been available long enough so I'll deal...

She saw something horrible, she saw her true love murdered right in front of her. Now... I end the movie with the little girl seeing what happened.
Even though the final scene is still in black and white what she saw was a glimpse of a possible future, but it has yet to happen.

Maybe I should have had the final scene gradually change from the yellowish black and white to colour. Would that help?

This little girl still has to grow up and decide what to do. Does she avoid mister wrong? If so... will she ever meet her true love?

Right or wrong.... this was done completely intentionally and was discussed at great length. Most people won't get this movie and I knew this going in.
I knew it would not help me place in this festival. I could have really went to greater lengths to explain that she had a chance at changing what she saw but I really didn't want to.

I also wrote the parts about fate, the book and her Grand Mother on purpose. It was as if her future self was trying to tell her present self that if she travels down this path... things will not end well. Very ambiguous... I know.

It was just something I really wanted to do.

Thanks again for watching and taking the time to comment.

I really do appreciate it.

If after reading the above you think I'm crazy and shouldn't have done that... let me know. I'll probably agree with you.

Cheers,

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

BTW, mature Lisa says....

"If you saw something bad happening before it occurred... do you think you could stop it?"

That's my major tip of the hat.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Hey Michael,

I've been chewing on this one since I watched it on Wed. I like the concept. I actually like n8ture's take that she was seeing the future.

SNIP

Am I stupid about what was up with the box?

Very close... she was seeing a possible future. Still yet to be determined.
More like a warning.

I agree though, I should have cooked the character development a little more.

Thanks so much for the comments. I'm making notes... :thumbup:

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Thanks so much, glad you liked it.

SPOILER
FULL EXPLANATION FOLLOWS:

... Right or wrong.... this was done completely intentionally and was discussed at great length. Most people won't get this movie and I knew this going in.
....

I guess my question is why make it? I understand experimenting. But why invite me to dinner and speak Spanish to me (which I don't speak). If you don't want most people to at least know what's going on in your movie ... why go through all the trouble?

Don't get me wrong ... for one thing, I experimented in A Little MOuth to Feed ... what happens when intimate character portrait turns into camp horror halfway through ... it was a movie I'd like to see and I wanted to see how many would go with me though I knew not all would. But I spoke in a language the people I was communicating to could understand so at least I'd have a chance that they'd go out on a limb with me. i,e, you know what's going on.

Secondly, I'm a fan of Lynch, but I don't place the same kind of linear demands on that kind of film, the same way I didn't on say, Cinealma's film last fest.

But here you set up a logic cause and effect world and don't give us enough information to understand it.

... I also wrote the parts about fate, the book and her Grand Mother on purpose. It was as if her future self was trying to tell her present self that if she travels down this path... things will not end well. Very ambiguous... I know.

No I get that it was on purpose. As I said I got the thematic area you are exploring on the second viewing due to those lines.. But just barely and on a second viewing.

You went out of your way to put in thematic dialogue about fate etc. Why not plot? Usually one errs the other way ... make the plot explicit and leave the thematic material more open to interpretation.

There's a pretty easy way to make it clear, even without additional dialogue at the end or anything, that the little girl is in the present and the adult version of her self is in the future ... Right now ending with the girl seems like a mistake. But it would be pretty simple to have her watching throughout the movie and reacting to things and that wouldn't be dumbing it down it would just make it possible to understand. Like for example if she reacts to the bad guy forgetting his phone. And then we go back into the story. Then we know she's watching the whole thing.

And we are still left to ponder what should she do to avoid this in the future and all the rich things you want us to think about.

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Brilliant dolly transition from the little girl to her adult self at the top.
You're a pimp with the dolly.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I really do think that showing the girl reacting throughout would be showing my hand before the reveal but that's just me. But I do agree that what I did probably wasn't clear enough for most... although some people did get that little girl was seeing into the future. Why some assumed that she saw the future and THEN allowed it to happen is where I went wrong.

If I can clear that up without hitting people over the head I'm golden. I do want it to be a bit of a surprise at the end.

Maybe a simple additional line of dialogue from the little girl might work?

Something like...

I can't let this happen?

What do you think?

I am game for changing things. Let me know what you think.

Jack, I just wanted to add. This is what makes this forum so great! I REALLY appreciate this more than you know.

Cheers!

:beer:

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Brilliant dolly transition from the little girl to her adult self at the top.
You're a pimp with the dolly.

Thanks!

That was shot on two different afternoons with different lighting and at different zooms lengths. At least I never measured...

Matched it up in post.
The girls were not in the house at the same time during these two shoots.

I didn't think I could pull off a shot like that really. I'm slowly learning as I go.
Sometimes you never know until you try. I definitely have to try more.

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

BTW, mature Lisa says....

"If you saw something bad happening before it occurred... do you think you could stop it?"

That's my major tip of the hat.

But that's no tip of the hat at all. In fact it's a red herring because you have all the people in the future doing all the reasoning.

That line applies just as much in the Adults are the present as it does in the little girl is the present scenario.

If I saw in my tea leaves that you and I were going to explode while riding bumper cars, and then Dennis hopper kidnaps Scarlett Johansen and will kill her unless we ride bumper cars together .... and then right before we strap in I say to you "If you saw something bad happening before it occurred... do you think you could stop it?" ... that wouldn't imply that the past when I read the tea leaves and had the vision was actually the present, only that we hadn't blown up while riding bumper cars yet.

It doesn't remotely suggest that we are an imagened future that has not occurred. I'm saying it before we get in the cars ... just like she says it before the abusive guy comes home. Both she and the little girl are on a timeline at a point before the bad event occurs, so it is no clue at all. Now if the little girl said that to Nana at the end ... then it would make sense.

I really do think that showing the girl reacting throughout would be showing my hand before the reveal but that's just me.

Yeah you are probably right, especially if you want that to be your button.

But I do agree that what I did probably wasn't clear enough for most... although some people did get that little girl was seeing into the future. Why some assumed that she saw the future and THEN allowed it to happen is where I went wrong.

If I can clear that up without hitting people over the head I'm golden. I do want it to be a bit of a surprise at the end.

Maybe a simple additional line of dialogue from the little girl might work?

Something like...

I can't let this happen?
....

Yeah that's what I meant by fixing it with dialogue or having dialogue that clarified the plot as you do theme. That's the alternate and perhaps better route than showing her watching through out.

Maybe edit around (meaning out) the "can you stop something before it happens" in the adult future and give that line to the little girl at the end.

Or ... this could be sexy ... have them both say the same line. That way you have a repeat of your tip of the hat. And a nice parallelism between the two versions of her.

It's tough in a short. In a feature you could have three different points in the script where a crucial plot point or backstory is alluded to in non-explicit ways and the sum of them adds up to information that the audience member needs while putting the pieces together themselves. But in a short if you only get one shot, or its vague you can miss it altogether even if you are a fairly sophisticated audience member. And that can be a big problem in a piece like this which is in someways a puzzle piece (though we don't know it until the end) or a piece where the last bit is meant to recontextualize everything that went before.

Again in Unawakening, a true puzzle piece and set up as such from the beginning i.e., "what the hell is going on here, what is reality?" my re- edit envolcves repeating some lines in flash back and re editing some scenes so that these crucial one shot lines are placed better or even repeated.

 

[Zim]

If your a kid and you see the future in a music box are you really going to understand what you saw years later is what you saw in the music box years ago? No.

Are you going to be on the look out for the checker headed guy? No. Could she even change the future if she wanted too?



When I think about this film it is almost like fate. It was her destiny.

Or maybe it was checker heads destiny. I think it was a good story that makes you think alittle.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

"If you saw something bad happening before it occurred... do you think you could stop it?"

Well... that line was intended to hint that the little girl was seeing what was happening before it happened.

I agree with what you said though... it needs a lot more help in that department.

I think I'm going to go with additional dialogue from the girl at the end to try and clear things up. I'll come up with something simple... but clear.

I may try changing the colour scheme entirely for present and future as well.

I like the repeat of the same line though! That's a really great idea. Do you think that and some colour adjustment might be enough? Or does it need more?

I will be adding an entire scene that helps the relationship between her and the neighbour. It also shows more evidence of physical spousal abuse. It is all shot and edited. Just needs to be tweaked. It was removed due to time.

Thanks again so much.

Cheers,

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

If your a kid and you see the future in a music box are you really going to understand what you saw years later is what you saw in the music box years ago? No.

Are you going to be on the look out for the checker headed guy? No. Could she even change the future if she wanted too?



When I think about this film it is almost like fate. It was her destiny.

Or maybe it was checker heads destiny. I think it was a good story that makes you think alittle.

Fate is definitely something I wanted people to mull over.

Zim, you commented on this film before this big discussion. What was unclear to you? What would you suggest adding?

 

[Geoff_R]

okay, i figured out what made me not get it the first time around. Your explanation makes perfect sense, 'the real world' is the world of the little girl and she is seeing a potential future...what threw me off was that in this potential future, she hears the music box play and then we hear the voiceover of 'when you find true love, you'll hear the music', which came out as a memory/flashback; so now you've got a flashback in a potential future situation. That made me think the 'potential future' was in fact 'the real world' and then the little girl scenes were past events.

 

[Geoff_R]

...still going...

Perhaps an idea. What if after that door shut, you went to the little girl afraid or suprised, etc, and then you hear the older woman say the bit about the 'hearing the music is when you find your true love'. I don't know, just an idea.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

okay, i figured out what made me not get it the first time around. Your explanation makes perfect sense, 'the real world' is the world of the little girl and she is seeing a potential future...what threw me off was that in this potential future, she hears the music box play and then we hear the voiceover of 'when you find true love, you'll hear the music', which came out as a memory/flashback; so now you've got a flashback in a potential future situation. That made me think the 'potential future' was in fact 'the real world' and then the little girl scenes were past events.

I can see that... absolutely!

Would you suggest a change?

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

If your a kid and you see the future in a music box are you really going to understand what you saw years later is what you saw in the music box years ago? No.

Are you going to be on the look out for the checker headed guy? No. .

... why not?

a kid can't understand one boyfriend coming home to discover her with another and killing him?

and if it's that pivotal of a moment, and you stare at the music box everyday as the next scene suggests ... again why not?

And I don't know if it matters that that's what would really happen or not ... the structure here as it is presented is:
girl sees bad thing happens,
ADULT IS STILL HAUNTED BY WHAT SHE SAW AS A LITTLE GIRL

... so under those givens set up within this story it's problematic.

The way the short is set up now suggests that she got some awful info as a child that she has carried with her to adulthood. Fast forward to adulthood and the fateful moment.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

...still going...

Perhaps an idea. What if after that door shut, you went to the little girl afraid or suprised, etc, and then you hear the older woman say the bit about the 'hearing the music is when you find your true love'. I don't know, just an idea.

Ooh... that might really work. I think I'll try that.
Maybe start it on the closed door so we can still get her Grand Mother's reaction to the fact that she looks scared?

Not sure...

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

... why not?

a kid can't understand one boyfriend coming home to discover her with another and killing him?

and if it's that pivotal of a moment, and you stare at the music box everyday as the next scene suggests ... again why not?

And I don't know if it matters that that's what would really happen or not ... the structure here as it is presented is:
girl sees bad thing happens,
ADULT IS STILL HAUNTED BY WHAT SHE SAW AS A LITTLE GIRL

... so under those givens set up within this story it's problematic.

The way the short is set up now suggests that she got some awful info as a child that she has carried with her to adulthood. Fast forward to adulthood and the fateful moment.

Although... she was obsessed with the music box as an adult because it would not play the music that she was promised to hear. She had not found love.

The entire thing was just being shown to her as it happened. The future has to play out before she (in the past) can see it and decide what to do.

These time things are a real pain in the ass.

 

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

...

I may try changing the colour scheme entirely for present and future as well.

I like the repeat of the same line though! That's a really great idea. Do you think that and some colour adjustment might be enough? Or does it need more? ...

yeah I think both of those things could work ... another thing ... it would be great if you could bookend the piece with another time traveling dolly shot to go back to the little girl.