THE MESSAGE UNIVERSAL (22min. film) UPDATED!

Re: THE MESSAGE UNIVERSAL (22min. film) UPDATED!

Ok, I'm back! lol...

[quote author=RobbieD link=board=Clips;num=1109483800;start=30#37 date=03/04/05 at 02:39:41]Just watched the "making of" and I noticed that you really just used the DVX, glidecam and lots of lighting.  Which mic did you use for audio?[/quote]

Well that behind the scenes didn't cover everything. Just the pickup shots. It didn't show you the home made dolly we used in the apartment and on the rooftop. The mic we used was a Seinheisser M-66 (if I'm remembering the model correctly). On the original shoot we had a boom operator who plugged into a mixer and then into the camera. In the pickups, she wasn't available (and neither was her equipment) so I rented the same mic and we just XLR'ed it straight into the camera. This was problematic because I had to match the pickup shots audio to the original shoot audio in post. Did that in Final Cut Pro using the audio filters and just sat there and messed around it until it sounded right to me.  Since it was all location sound except for two lines of ADR, I had to take the room tone and street atmosphere's I recorded on set and use that as a bandaid to heal "popping" in the cuts.  You'll notice me bitching about the sound issues on set in the behind the scenes.

{For those wondering why I was complaining about the fountain being on in the park, it was wreaking havok with our audio and at that time of the year, the fountain is never on. It just so happened a kids school trip was going on that day and they turned on the fountain for them to see. (oh joy)}

Also, I really like the way you edited this film.  What do you charge to edit a 20 minute film?  As, I mentioned before I am thinking of doing what you did (shoot a short movie over a few days) in a few months and I think the editing will play a big part.   I'm sure you did most of the work in post (effects, color etc.) and that is where I have no clue...
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Well, truth is, neither did I! I just knew I wanted to make a film to learn how to do it. I'm flattered you'd like to pay me to edit your flik, but some of your request depends on what your intent for your first film is though. Ask yourself, why are you making this film? Are you looking to take it to festivals? Or are you doing it for the experience to learn how to be a film maker? If it's the latter, I would suggest you just sit down and go through the trial and error process like I did. You won't learn how to edit if you have someone else do it for you (especially someone who doesn't live near you). Also, you can purchase tutorial DVD's for the technicals of editing programs and color correction. Not to mention there are many books on the subject which you can just go and read through at your local bookstore. ;)

Best of luck with your endeavors and if you have other questions, don't hesitate to email me through my website. If I have the time I'll try and help out if I can.
 
Re: THE MESSAGE UNIVERSAL (22min. film) UPDATED!

Hi Jordan,
For my point in picture quality, I found as exemple, the lighting in the library not always as equal between the different angle of view, full light, strong backlight as compare to soft bounce light and no more backlight on others plans. *It is a small detail and with the use of only 3 light sources and natural light, you have done a really good work.
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Oh THAT'S what you meant! Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. You're referring to the closeup shots of the lead actress compared to the OTS shots, right? The reason is because the close up shots were all done as pickups many months after principle photography. We only had 3 hours in that location during principle photography and the lead actress was having a really hard time with that scene (which I'm sure most of you can tell as it's the weakest part of her performance). It wasn't a techincal mistake so much as an on location filming issue. We did light the same way, but the lead actress moved out of frame in those clips and my DP had to follow her movement so the rim lighting didn't match. Also, when she moved, she moved into the shadow of the supporting actress so her face was a bit darker than it should have been. Then of course, we ran out of time again as this time, there were people in the bookstore and the owners were pushing us out. *But anyway, that's why you noticed that. I don't think it's anything that takes the viewer out of the narrative though so it's not a big issue for me. What was more difficult was dealing with the end sequence because my lead had aged a bit in her face since the original shoot. I'm surprised you didn't catch that as to me it's really noticable when she looks at the books on the couch, and then we cut back to the push in on her remembering what lead her to this point in the story, etc. ;D I did a TREMENDOUS amount of CC on that scene to get them to match because the lighting was off in that scene even more drastically than the bookstore. (it was the last scene of the day and we were REALLY tired)

You should try to see what will be the response in a contest like TriggerStreet, may be after a small clean-up editing for shortened/tightened the film. Excellent travail, inspiring, Your on the right tracks. ;)
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OH that won't be happening with this, lol. (not unless I get a professional score done and even then, I wouldn't want to enter this subject matter into a festival.) It truly was an exercise in learning how to make a film and at best I see it as a reel piece. The subject matter was just me venting my frustration of the world's state of affairs. But I've since stopped watching the news 24/7 and I'm a much happier person for it, lol. ;D

But thanks for thinking it's worthy of entering into triggerstreet. Much appreciated. :) And I have to say, I'm flattered you still have the film on your hard drive and that you actually watched it a second time! :)

PS: *If you guys liked this one, wait until you see the horror film I have in mind. ;)
 
Re: THE MESSAGE UNIVERSAL (22min. film) UPDATED!

Can't wait to see what you put out next! ;D And I just wanted to say thanks for all of the detailed answers you gave - very informing (and I'm sure time consuming). anyway, I checked out your work on your site - very well done, I can see how that has shaped your story telling abilities. It is a great match for you (film making). Oh, and I LOVE that audio tribute to monty python "and now for something completely different" - I'm a HUGE monty python fan. (I even got some of the dolls ... err ... um ... action figures ;) )
 
waltind said:
Can't wait to see what you put out next! ;D And I just wanted to say thanks for all of the detailed answers you gave - very informing (and I'm sure time consuming). anyway, I checked out your work on your site - very well done, I can see how that has shaped your story telling abilities. It is a great match for you (film making). Oh, and I LOVE that audio tribute to monty python "and now for something completely different" - I'm a HUGE monty python fan. (I even got some of the dolls ... err ... um ... action figures ;) )
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Heh heh... glad you liked that. You know, it's been so long since I've browsed my own site that I forgot I included that little monty python line there. The animation design work on my site was so out of the norm for me that I thought it was appropriate.

Always glad to give detailed answers to questions. I figure it's the least I can do for people who say they like my work. If my answers so far failed to answer anyone else's questions please post 'em and thanks again for the feedback.

I hope this thread survives the new forum setup. It's not as easy to navigate as it was before. (or is this just me?)
 
Hi Jordan,

Still have the film on my hard drive :), but I will wait for your "film d'horreur" for my next show time. :)

I'm glad you no more watching the 24/7 news, what a loss of time, better stick on DVXUSER for your informations. :D
 
HORROR FILM SHOOT. You in?

HORROR FILM SHOOT. You in?

SPEAKING OF THE HORROR FILM:

If any of you guys live in the greater Los Angeles area and are interested in being involved in the production of the horror film I mentioned , drop me a line and lets start getting to know each other. There is no pay of course as this is going to be funded by my credit card. But how cool would it be to get a group of local DVXusers together and shoot a flik? :thumbsup:

My goal is to be into production this summer or fall. Who's game?
 
I will have been in the game if the distance wasn't so big. I never been in California however, too bad. :cry:

If you ever have a project around here in Montreal, we never know what can happen in your new filmmaking career, feel free to give me a buzz. :thumbsup:

Bonne Chance !!! With your scary movie.
 
Can you tell me the exact filter you used for the outdoor shot with the tattooed guy and the main character in the gun speech scene?
 
Funny, but I felt better after not watching the news 24/7--that goes for BOTH sides of the political spectrum. Better to keep your mind clear for filmmaking;) Got to say that I echo most of the opinions of this thread. I would like to further say that the "twist" at the end made the movie.

Also, for what it's worth, even though you "borrowed" music, you seem to have a good sense of when and where it is appropriate, and that is more than I can say for a LOT of directors. Sounded like James Newton Howard for most of it....am I wrong? I apologize if this has already been covered.
 
Just thought I'd throw in my .02c.
Story. There seemed to be too much expository dialogue. It would be better, to focus on the "show don't tell" axiom in the future, and a lot of the writing was on the nose. Not in the
extreme, however, but it was noticeable. Otherwise a strong premise.
Pace. I guess it relates to the above. With a tighter edit, cutting some scenes, this would really fly.
Direction. I liked your shot selection etc... although I felt the NYPD type bob and weave camera
shots in the street, kind of telegraphed where you were going, and is overused in films IMO.
I won't go into the graphics/fx issues, since it's been discussed quite a bit. I will say "Less is more".
DP - except for some digital gain issues in the apartment, the cinematography
fit like a glove, and was superlative.
Overall though, considering this is your first and highly personal film (which could have
been a didactic trap) , it's accomplished. It held my interest throughout, and despite some
drawbacks , told it's story well. I hope to see more in the future.
 
Ok, my thoughts on the film.

This was your first attempt and I think you did an amazing job. You seemed to cover alot of areas that we all skip first time.. The sound was fine, I was really impressed by the quality of the shots in both the library and the outdoor shot gun dialogue. The overall look was amazing.

The story was fine although a little uncertain at times. I hate to even begin to criticise you because you did such an amazing job for a first time gig. I felt some of the shots were not lit properly while some of the lits were lit perfectly.. It came across as either you didn't have the lighting resources for certain shots, or you didn't feel you needed them.

Also, you kind of went somewhat overboard on one of the effects but because you didn't have much resources to work with at the time and you worked with what you knew, it was ok.. I'd say less is more for your next production.. and I hope you do put together something else again. I'm sure you have inspired alot of people - myself included, to get up off our arse and get something worthwhile done.

Brilliant job. Let's see some more work from you. :)
 
RESPONDING TO FEEDBACK (finally)

RESPONDING TO FEEDBACK (finally)

Wow. Just when you think your thread has run its course someone new posts something and brings it back to life. Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback.

Some people have been emailing me privately asking about the settings in the park scene and bookstore. Basically the flashback stuff. This was done with a combination of things.

First, the camera settings (DVX-100, not 'a') were:

cine gamma
matrix normal
chroma -4
detail -4
master ped -2
thin
shot with anamorphic adapter

Then I applied a combination of magic bullet preset look filters:
LS Basic White
LS Punchy

Now onto the comments:

DinosaurInc:
Thanks for the kind comments. I don't know if I'd call it a twist ending so much as an "adding up" ending. All of the vague elements coming together in the final moments of clarity for the character (and audience). And yes, most of the music was by James Newton Howard. Mostly from Signs but some from The Pelican Brief (opening and ending) and one small part from The Village. Howard is amazing and I hope I get the chance to work with him some day. Thanks again.

D and G:

Thanks for the comments. Regarding the dialogue, I think you're confusing Exposition with Preachiness. My understanding of exposition is when two characters are discussing something they both are already aware of with the intent of informing the audience of a plot point. I don't see where that was done in my short, but if you wouldn't mind pointing out what you're referring to I'll be happy to address it. The only spot I think you might feel some dialogue is expository would be in the bookstore scene when they make their "bet". The whole point to the short was to be preachy as I explained in my original post. When you preach there's almost a guarantee you'll have sappy dialogue and in some cases, exposition. This wasn't an oversight on my part so much as an intent. If this was a purely entertainment based project then you'd be absolutely correct. But putting the project's intent into context, well... I think it should be taken into account. Either way, rest assured, all my other scripts have absolutely no exposition in them.

With regards to pace, I'm assuming you're referring to the opening like everyone else has. If you mean other places, please elaborate.

With regards to Direction, there was no NYPD intentional bob and weave movements. I'm assuming you're referring to a part of the dream sequence where we're close on the terrorist. If so, the reason that happened was because we were using a Glidecam and walking/running backwards with it. Those things always give you a wobbling horizon line and there was no budget for a real steadicam. Point being, it wasn't an intentional choice. Just a result of lack of funding so to speak. We were also running on a tight clock for that shot and concerned a cop would pull up and ask what was going on. We had no permits (yikes). In hind sight, it might have been better just to hand hold the shot. Something to keep in mind for the future.

With regards to DP, the digital gain was unavoidable if we wanted to attain the look we were going for. But I don't see it as an issue. No lay person would notice something like that and it wouldn't take them out of the narrative so for the masses it's a bit of a mute point. Personally, I like a little noise or grain in the image. When things are too clean they look more like video (can you say XL-2?)

Glad to hear you liked it overall though and thanks for the feedback.

John:

I hope the above information on the filter and camera settings helps you out. The story was uncertain on purpose. The intent was to string along the audience. I've had many people comment they thought she might have wanted a gun to commit a terrorist act herself until the reveal in the third act of the film. I rather like the idea that I misled them. I was aware of that possibility and actually considered pushing that plot point in the script when I was writing it, but opted not to for time considerations. This was, after all, originally supposed to be a "get your feet wet" project. It just grew into more than that as the production went along.

Regarding the lighting (I'm assuming you're referring to the night scenes). They were properly lit. I think it looks dark on your screen because of the compression issue. When I compressed the movie as a download it got darker. But on an NTSC monitor it's perfectly clear. Also, since we're shooting NTSC, everyone should be aware the NTSC stands for Not The Same Color (smiles). It will look different on your monitor especially if it's not calibrated properly.

Less is indeed more on the effects. Lesson learned. I was so concerned with selling the looking through the presence's eyes without it reminding us of Predator that I pushed it too far. Hoping to learn some stronger post programs besides final cut pro. The next project is going to be much more epic in production scope and script. Hope I can pull it off!

Thanks again for the comments and sorry it took me so long to get back to you all. FYI, if you haven't seen "the behind the scenes" footage, I posted it to my own website and placed a new link to it on the first page post of this thread. Strancali still has his link working but some of you might not have found where I place it on this thread. (feel free to comment on that too <smiles>)

Thanks again and if you opt to watch the film, please leave feedback.
 
Hi storyteller32.
Just to clarify. I thought your short film was better than 75% of the shorts I've seen on the internet, but I thought since you were getting mostly universal approval, I'd identify some small criticisms ( feedback).

Exposition - yes, you are correct, what you described "two characters already knowing etc...) is exposition (usually bad). It's also - any facts or information, biography or chartacterization, the audience needs to know to follow or comprehend the story (regardless if another character knows it or not). This is where I think
you fell down a bit (although it may be a stylistic choice, as you said). Examples are in the bookstore and the newscast at the end.

I prefer subtlety and subtext. It's not what you write, but what you write around.
It's the deeper part of the story which isn't shown in words but actions.
Also, I think you can make a strong point, either morally, spiritually, socially etc...
using those tools without using preachiness.

I understand where you were coming from and hence your film is , for you, right on target. My suggestions were only meant as a sounding board for future projects. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Pace - I know you were building atmosphere. I just felt, if you progressively tightened
up the scenes as they occured, you could build more momentum. Again, only a
minor quibble.

Cinematography - I like film grain, digital noise is another matter. I know your working within the limitations of the technology, so regarding that earlier comment - my bad.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that your short film had a lot of
quality. Like I said before, you have a natural talent for shot selection
and composition as it related to the story, and your lead actress gave
a good performance (which as her director is one of your main jobs).

Thus, I enjoyed it, and was interested throughout. You accomplished
what you set out to do, and have people looking forward to your next
project, so your doin' aiight .

Anyway, Gotta go , Now's the time for a herbal solution (aka beer).

So Cheers.
 
Storytellar - I applaud the time you put into your responses. I really do hope you make some more productions. Your work is enjoyable - Thanks for getting back to me.


best of luck,
John.
 
D_and_G said:
Exposition - yes, you are correct, what you described "two characters already knowing etc...) is exposition (usually bad). It's also - any facts or information, biography or chartacterization, the audience needs to know to follow or comprehend the story (regardless if another character knows it or not). This is where I think you fell down a bit (although it may be a stylistic choice, as you said). Examples are in the bookstore and the newscast at the end.

I prefer subtlety and subtext. It's not what you write, but what you write around.
It's the deeper part of the story which isn't shown in words but actions.
Also, I think you can make a strong point, either morally, spiritually, socially etc...
using those tools without using preachiness.

I understand where you were coming from and hence your film is , for you, right on target. My suggestions were only meant as a sounding board for future projects. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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Hey dude, thanks for posting a clarification. Hope ya enjoyed the beer! :grin: Just FYI for you and all who read my responses. They're not in anyway written from an annoyed or angry point of view. I sincerely appreciate all the feedback positive or negative. This site has been my film school of sorts and I'm grateful to all who've taken the time to download, watch the flik and post commentary on it. I say this because it's very easy to read anger into a sentence when there is none behind it because there's no inflection in the words. With that in mind, here's my response:

I too prefer subtlety and subtext and generally that's how I write. And in that regard I agree with you about the bookstore sequence 100%. Your feedback is absolutely spot on for that and others who are reading this should bear it in mind when writing their own entertainment based scripts as well. With this piece, however, the dialogue was intended to blatantly slap extremists in the face with their own nonsense so in that regard, intent is key for the decisions I made as a writer. Again, don't do it on entertainment based work. It's a no-no.

But with regards to the newscast at the end, well, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree that it's expository (at least in the negative way which would take one out of the narrative and make them dislike the execution). For one, the scene is a reveal and part of the intent of the reveal is to show the audience who the person she killed was and why he deserved to die. The other important part is to show that the main character will get away with killing the terrorist. This has to be explained through dialogue between the characters who claim to be witnesses. In which case you can't show it, you have to tell it in order to make it clear. And clarity should always be the priority in any story.

But for this production in particular the point your making really doesn't apply and I'll explain why (taking a deep breath...!)

The route you're describing would not only be repetitive in the narrative but would have a cascading affect on the overall production which would have been quite problematic.

First, showing the reveal without telling (or less telling) would require more scenes. This adds length to the reveal because actions take up more screen time than dialogue (slowing pacing and most likely making it drag). Not to mention, I'm not crazy about it as a narrative choice because we already saw what she did in her dream sequence and it would be repetitive (also creating a drag) especially during the newscast (I'd sooner show what she did after she left the apartment. (Also repetitive, but a better spot for it I think and I did have a cut that way once but found it was less satisfying to the majority of people who viewed it). But lastly, for this reveal it's more interesting to hear it described by a witness because it puts in the audiences head the way it went down and what's imagined is always more interesting and personal than what's shown. (again the key point of the scene was to show who she killed, why he deserved to die, that she got away with it and to hint to the main character "what her information sources were" as she watched it (it's a reveal for her just as much as the audience). So since we already know what she did from the dream sequence, it's not expository, it's just non linear.

But what's even more problematic with your suggestion is it would add cost to the budget because in order to actually show what the witness character is describing to the newscaster would require more scenes to shoot (time is money in the budget). Not to mention more time on the street (with no permits) and brandishing a prop gun which looks authentic inviting jail time for me. My money could potentially be wasted without recourse to recoup and likely shutting down the production before the film is ever finished. (I think Embers mentioned the cops confiscated his footage when he did that, lol... poor guy. :( )

Anyway, as you can see, my choices for this script were based not just from a writing point of view, but from a directing and producing one as well. From a producing point of view, the writing reflected what I could actually start and finish on a credit card budget. (end cost was $2,900 including purchasing a hard drive for post work and only went that high because of recasting an actor after principle photography {the tatoo guy in the park})

(inhaling again...) :grin:

Again, nothing said with malice. I appreciate the feedback and your point of view on it. Just wanted to point these facts out for others who are considering doing likewise. Now they have both our points of view and can make their choices on their projects taking all these things into account. :grin: Thanks again! (drink a beer for me!)

For John:
You're most welcome! :thumbsup:
 
Nice, after my seizure stopped from that crazy melty wave effect, I came to and watch a pretty decent short.

Best line: "..it was CIA you frickin moron!"
 
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