The Lone Ranger
- Thread starter refocusedmedia
- Start date
it's a movie if you're not part of that 'race'. Once it's yours you feel different. I'm on the same boat you are but still can't really feel perfectly okay watching all the stuff that takes my 'race' into account.
I sincerely don't know where I stand on this one to date.
Truth be told, I heard of this flick, was like... ok ... (first thing that came to mind) who's tonto? Can they do tonto these days? And then Johnny Depp as Tonto. I did cringe... I dunno didn't feel right.
I sincerely don't know where I stand on this one to date.
Truth be told, I heard of this flick, was like... ok ... (first thing that came to mind) who's tonto? Can they do tonto these days? And then Johnny Depp as Tonto. I did cringe... I dunno didn't feel right.
Well I cringed when Will Smith's kid became the Karate Kid and I cringed when Seth Rogan was cast as the Green Hornet. I cringed when Johnny Depp was cast as Barnnabis Collins. I don't why Depp accepted these gigs. He doesn't need the money. Did he read the scripts? Maybe you just do them all and you never know which one will be a Jack Sparrow? IDK.
I believe the reviews that Lone Ranger is bad, but I don't think casting a Native American would have helped. By all accounts Native Americans should be glad they did not take the role in such a dud.
On the plus side I am looking forward to Kickass 2.
It's official. Lone Ranger has replaced John Carter as the most expensive flop in recent history.
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/did-the-lone-rangers-failure-endanger-future-films.html/?ref=YF
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/did-the-lone-rangers-failure-endanger-future-films.html/?ref=YF
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
A few years ago there was an uproar about 3 chinese actresses, Zhang Ziyi, Gong Li, and Michelle Yeoh, playing 'geishas' in "Memoir of a Geisha"(2005).
Of course the quint essential 'trans national/racial' production is "Madame Butteryfly"... an opera set in Japan, about a Japanese woman, her American Lover, all sung in Italian...
Ok... Tamerlano is out there too... An opera with a central asian lead, Tamerlane (Timur), music written by a german living in England, sung in Italian, written by an Italian living in England...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Naw, the most egregious example is "Highlander", where they cast a Frenchman to play the Scottish Highlander. What, they couldn't find a Scot? Oh, of course they could, because they cast Sean Connery, a Scot... as a Spaniard! 
Another example might be Disney's Mulan, where the Chinese military commander who leads the group that stops the huns is played by well-known Chinese actor Donny Osmond.
Seriously though, when dealing with a subject as sensitive as race relations, when there's historical bad blood between the races it might not be the wisest move to cast a Chinese actress to play a role as culturally significant as a Geisha. It is no different than if Spielberg were to cast a Jew to play Schindler, or anthony Hopkins in blackface to play Nelson Mandela. It's not THAT hard to show a little respect and cultural sensitivity, is it?
Remember 20 years ago when we had all that stupidity about the French not supporting the Gulf War, and our congress changed the menu in the house deli to rename "French fries" to "freedom fries"? Right or wrong, how well do you think a film released then about 1776, starring Gerard Depardieu as George Washington, would have done?
Seriously, when portraying a significant cultural figure, I don't see anything wrong with taking some effort to respect that culture. Johnny Depp as The Lone Ranger? Sure, why not? Johnny Depp as Tonto? What were they thinking?
Another example might be Disney's Mulan, where the Chinese military commander who leads the group that stops the huns is played by well-known Chinese actor Donny Osmond.
Seriously though, when dealing with a subject as sensitive as race relations, when there's historical bad blood between the races it might not be the wisest move to cast a Chinese actress to play a role as culturally significant as a Geisha. It is no different than if Spielberg were to cast a Jew to play Schindler, or anthony Hopkins in blackface to play Nelson Mandela. It's not THAT hard to show a little respect and cultural sensitivity, is it?
Remember 20 years ago when we had all that stupidity about the French not supporting the Gulf War, and our congress changed the menu in the house deli to rename "French fries" to "freedom fries"? Right or wrong, how well do you think a film released then about 1776, starring Gerard Depardieu as George Washington, would have done?
Seriously, when portraying a significant cultural figure, I don't see anything wrong with taking some effort to respect that culture. Johnny Depp as The Lone Ranger? Sure, why not? Johnny Depp as Tonto? What were they thinking?
IMO, art trumps cultural sensitivity. Once you go for cultural sensitivtiy instead of art, you're headed towards making crap because you're doing things for all the wrong reasons. I never saw an entertaining movie that was entertaining because it was so culturally sensitive. I have seen extremely insensitive movies that were very entertaining, case in point Django.
The only exception is black face. Black face, making a white man look black to perform, is insulting because of early minstrel shows that were meant to specifically degrade African Americans, who at the time were actually Slaves.
Minstrel shows were popular in 1848, and if you know your history the Civil War which ended slavery was not over until 1865. After 1865 there were still Jim Crow laws and African Americans had no civil rights, and there were still black face performances degrading African Americans in Vaudeville.
So Black Face has a long history of being performed when African Americas were actual Slaves, not just a minority. It has a history of being used specifically to insult African Americans. It is therefore understandable that African Americans would be insulted by the use of black Face in a performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface
There is an actual historical significance of black face that is not relevant to other portrayals of other races or nationalities.
So no, I don't see why Donny Osmond cannot play a Chinese military in an English speaking movie like Mulan. I don't see a history of Chinese Face like black face, where Chinese were slaves and minstrel shows portrayed themselves as Chinese just to insult the Chinese and establish them as an inferior race deserving to be enslaved.
Are Donny Osmond or the people that cast him trying to say that Chinese people should be slaves? I don't think so.
I certainly didn't mind that the young actor that plays Kickass portrays a young American but is actually a British actor. I thought it was good acting.
The only exception is black face. Black face, making a white man look black to perform, is insulting because of early minstrel shows that were meant to specifically degrade African Americans, who at the time were actually Slaves.
Minstrel shows were popular in 1848, and if you know your history the Civil War which ended slavery was not over until 1865. After 1865 there were still Jim Crow laws and African Americans had no civil rights, and there were still black face performances degrading African Americans in Vaudeville.
So Black Face has a long history of being performed when African Americas were actual Slaves, not just a minority. It has a history of being used specifically to insult African Americans. It is therefore understandable that African Americans would be insulted by the use of black Face in a performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface
There is an actual historical significance of black face that is not relevant to other portrayals of other races or nationalities.
So no, I don't see why Donny Osmond cannot play a Chinese military in an English speaking movie like Mulan. I don't see a history of Chinese Face like black face, where Chinese were slaves and minstrel shows portrayed themselves as Chinese just to insult the Chinese and establish them as an inferior race deserving to be enslaved.
Are Donny Osmond or the people that cast him trying to say that Chinese people should be slaves? I don't think so.
I certainly didn't mind that the young actor that plays Kickass portrays a young American but is actually a British actor. I thought it was good acting.
Batutta
Major Contributor
His 3 billion dollar lifetime gross most likely...I'm not sure this is as big a deal as people are making it. Tonto is a fictional character, not a historical figure. If this were truly offensive to the Native American population, we'd be hearing about it. So far, the only critics I've heard from are media outlets trying to make controversy.
Naw, the most egregious example is "Highlander", where they cast a Frenchman to play the Scottish Highlander. What, they couldn't find a Scot? Oh, of course they could, because they cast Sean Connery, a Scot... as a Spaniard!
This casting is a huge reason Highlander is the cult classic it is today. This example is a great argument for not being culturally sensitive and casting according to race or nationality, but rather casting actors that are best for the directors vision.
If you change the casting on Highlander to be culturally sensitive there's a good chance none of us would even recognize the reference to Highlander because it would have gone entirely unnoticed.
It's just like making a movie by committee. Not likely to produce memorable films.
Most of the people complaining about the casting don't even like these sorts of movies and were not going to see it no matter who was cast as Tonto, even if it was a good movie.
You could please the politically correct cultural police, just to to make a movie they would never go see anyway. What good would that do? It's like a bunch of Vegans telling you that you need to change your menu at a steakhouse.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Well, perhaps we will see Depp go the route of Jay Silverheels...
I wonder what sort of car Depp would like to huckster for...
He was Egyptian.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Who -- Connery? Or his character? Because Connery is definitely not Egyptian, he was born and raised in Scotland. So you must mean his character, and if his character was Egyptian, then that's even more ridiculous, especially because his character name was "Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez".
Regarding "art vs cultural sensitivity" -- look -- if you don't HAVE to be an ass, why be an ass? If you don't HAVE to cast a role in a way that'll offend a huge section of the population, why do it? If there's some overwhelmingly powerful artistic reason to do it, then go ahead. But if you think you're going to eke out a few more box office dollars by casting a role with zero sensitivity to the negative aspect that it can cause, then that's just you being a jerk, right?
Is it that hard to think a little ahead and say "okay, what's the downside to doing this?" and at least thinking about it? That's all I'm talking about. And just because WE may not be mortally offended by seeing a Chinese actor cast to play a culturally-significant Japanese role, that doesn't mean that they aren't offended.
Nobody's saying "you have to be PC at all costs." All I'm saying is -- why be offensive if there's a reasonable alternative?
That wasn't his original name.
The reasonable alternative is to not say anything and not make a movie at all. No matter what you say or do, SOMEONE will be offended.
Imagine making a movie and that's how all the decisions are made. Do I HAVE to do this? Is there some less offensive alternative? I should then go with the less offensive alternative....
Sounds like a great way to make a really boring crappy movie.
You're not being an ass just because someone else thinks you should do it differently, and if you spend all your time thinking about how someone else would do it you're going to make something boring for sure.
I'd say Barry that you personally, should make your movies with everyone playing their correct race, nationality, or whatever box you want to put them in if that's what makes you happy.
Anyone that wants to cast different races or nationalities in different roles should definitely not listen to you and definitely not do it your way, but should instead be creative and cast the best actors they can get that will help them create their vision regardless of race or nationality.
refocusedmedia
Veteran
No, it doesn't. It's ultra-PC nonsense, to put it politely.
In other news, this movie has to gross $800 million to break even. It's currently around ~$80 million.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Whose original name? And what does it matter? Connery, a Scot, was cast to play Ramirez, a Spaniard. Where does this whole Egyptian thing come from and how is it relevant?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Y'know, Gillvane, sometimes I read your posts and find myself agreeing completely. And sometimes, I really don't get where you're coming from or why you're doing it.
Taking an extra thirty seconds to say "okay, we want to cast this character, anybody got any reasons why not to?" and getting feedback that says "well, I think some people might object to Mel Gibson being cast to play Moses"... how is that wrong? Then you can decide whether you want to go forward with Mel Gibson as Moses, knowing it's going to infuriate tens of millions of Jews, or you can say "Hmmm, good point. How about we cast Harrison Ford instead?"
One way is being selfish, and will lead to some controversy and some alienation. The other way will likely result in a comparable film that doesn't cause that same controversy and alienation.
Maybe someone wants that controversy? As in, maybe they're trying to rile up tens of millions of people and use that anguish to sell tickets? If so, well, let me just say that anyone doing that is a rat bastard. Exploiting race hatred or the Holocaust or something like that, to make an additional buck, is evil, pure and simple.
My philosophy is to tread lightly when you can. Break eggs to make omelets, yes, but don't make a bigger mess than you have to, you don't have to trash the entire box of eggs when you only need three to make an omelet. If your attitude is (if I'm reading this right) "To hell with anyone else, I'm going to do what I want, my way, and I don't care who doesn't like it, everyone else can shove their feelings, MY ART is the ONLY thing that matters" well... that's not a philosophy I'm gonna get behind. Because all I said was -- if you're making a choice that has significant consequences, what's so wrong with evaluating whether a slightly different choice would avoid all those consequences? How is that possibly a bad thing?
Taking an extra thirty seconds to say "okay, we want to cast this character, anybody got any reasons why not to?" and getting feedback that says "well, I think some people might object to Mel Gibson being cast to play Moses"... how is that wrong? Then you can decide whether you want to go forward with Mel Gibson as Moses, knowing it's going to infuriate tens of millions of Jews, or you can say "Hmmm, good point. How about we cast Harrison Ford instead?"
One way is being selfish, and will lead to some controversy and some alienation. The other way will likely result in a comparable film that doesn't cause that same controversy and alienation.
Maybe someone wants that controversy? As in, maybe they're trying to rile up tens of millions of people and use that anguish to sell tickets? If so, well, let me just say that anyone doing that is a rat bastard. Exploiting race hatred or the Holocaust or something like that, to make an additional buck, is evil, pure and simple.
My philosophy is to tread lightly when you can. Break eggs to make omelets, yes, but don't make a bigger mess than you have to, you don't have to trash the entire box of eggs when you only need three to make an omelet. If your attitude is (if I'm reading this right) "To hell with anyone else, I'm going to do what I want, my way, and I don't care who doesn't like it, everyone else can shove their feelings, MY ART is the ONLY thing that matters" well... that's not a philosophy I'm gonna get behind. Because all I said was -- if you're making a choice that has significant consequences, what's so wrong with evaluating whether a slightly different choice would avoid all those consequences? How is that possibly a bad thing?
adkimery
Veteran
In Highlander mythology Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez was only the character's most recent name/identity. The character was born as an Egyptian named Tak-Ne. I guess it makes sense for people living thousands of years to change their identity to help stay on the down low.
-Andrew