The LED Apocalypse. Should I rush out and get some panels ASAP?

MattinSTL said:
I've never seen another LED product that looks like Litepanels' products. With the perforated metal construction and the slide-in hard filters? Somebody's selling that same design?
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Oh, come on, even the link in OP's post is to something that after you remove BDs resembles LP. ...At $1600 less then LP.
 
So Litepanels can patent a square? Is that the only difference? Hmm... which black square should I buy? There can't be any difference in them... this one's a black square and that one's a black square... yep. Identical.

Did you ever notice how nearly every shotgun mic is a black cylinder of nearly the same exact appearance? (diameter, length, cuts in the metal... virtually the same)... yet nobody argues that only one mic should be available to everyone... and we all know the good ones from the bad ones, based on performance.

Well... that's how I choose my gear anyway. What it does, for what it costs... and I assure you I have plenty of experience with Chinese LEDs... probably a lot more than you think. If you see them in person, they don't look like the high-end stuff... only a total noob would confuse them. (certainly nobody that couldn't tell the difference in the two would even be in the market for anything professional)
 
Mattin, why do you think companies like Azden stay in business if not because sometimes making stuff that looks like "a black cylinder" but for 1/5 of the price of the real gear is often enough for people to assume that somehow they are getting the "real stuff."
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Mattin, why do you think companies like Azden stay in business if not because sometimes making stuff that looks like "a black cylinder" but for 1/5 of the price of the real gear is often enough for people to assume that somehow they are getting the "real stuff."
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It's pretty simple actually... low end companies stay in business because lots of people can't afford the good stuff, but about 99% of the people that CAN afford the good stuff know the difference.

The "people" who assume they are getting the "real stuff" for 1/5th the price are not who Litepanels is concerned about. It's a terminator thing... because Litepanels is selling a product built of few components... namely, a commodity product... a specific LED (diode)... and a specific dimmer circuit... beyond that, much like my previous bulb comment, there's nothing to prevent other products from evolving into the same performance if they're made with the same bulbs. In my opinion Litepanels is trying to patent a bulb array, because the "bulbs" are LEDs, that again, they don't manufacture. Whereas they'd be legitimate in patenting the housing and circuitry, surrounding it.

Further more... they want to prevent any LED array arranged in a manner conducive to video production.

The entire internet is flooded with people who'll spend all day arguing that their t2i is better then a RED or whatever... I didn't think that was the point of the conversation. Litepanels doesn't want anybody else to build anything similar to their product. My response was that there are a million products in every category that look like and work like other products... starting with lighting tools, most of which are constructed under similar designs, but stand on their own merit of performance and functionality.
 
Patryk, what is your point? LP is attempting to patent clustering LEDs for video lighting. Their claim applies whether the competing cluster looks like their product, or if it were shaped like a teapot and painted with purple polka dots.
 
I was the guy that originally lobbied for multi emitter LED Arrays for video I am so thrilled to see they have become so mainstream. Oddly, I'm retreating to Tungsten for a lot of my own work.
I still fiddle around with LED for research and am developing some super bright panels as well some secret little studio lights. But I can't get anyone in the biz to duplicate the amazing spectral quality of a tungsten filament. I bet that will come soon, with all the benefits of LED, bit were a couple of years from that.
Having said that, I like my Cineroid camcorder lights so much, I use them in Umbrellas as well.
LitePanels is no friend of mine so I endorse that link the OP put up or any of many Chinese Ebay sellers.
By the way, the DIY 12"X10" panel I finished making today cost me something like $45.00 but has no controls- JUST LIGHT :)
 
GrahamH said:
Patryk, what is your point? LP is attempting to patent clustering LEDs for video lighting. Their claim applies whether the competing cluster looks like their product, or if it were shaped like a teapot and painted with purple polka dots.
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Only trouble is.... LP did not invent the multi-emitter panel :) They cannot get a patent on it . If they have, I will have it overturned.

Reasons?
1) It fails the non-obviousness requirement.
2) Prior Art . Multi 'bulb' lights were actually patented by Mole Richardson
3) There have been dozens of patented multi-bulb movie-making lights on the market. LitePanels is screwed.

I should also mention that MOST panels that use the 3-5mm nichia emitters cost very little to make. They are almost pure profit at retail.
Here's my cheezy video of my latest project to kill time while waiting for HURRICANE SANDY
https://vimeo.com/52211495
 
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Either we accept that there is really nothing unique or original to LED arrays as anyone can do it for, as Zephyrnoid suggest, for $45 - in which case everyone (including the OP's link) is screwing us over by charging an arm-and-a-leg for something that is incredibly cheap or we accept that there is more then meets the eye. Unlike with tungsten lights where we see that all that meets the eye is IT (as the basics of the light are obvious: bulb + wires + electricity = light) i know from my experience that with LEDs it is not. For instance higher end panels maintain the current even as the batteries get discharged so the light's intensity stays the same. This much i know. Is that circuitry worth close to 2 grand? Having worked with gear that is on both ends of the price spectrum i've learned that you DO get what you paid for. Too bad that with LPs i kinda don't know what that $ goes into as for me the circuitry mentioned above is not worth the $2gs.
 
Zephyrnoid said:
Only trouble is.... LP did not invent the multi-emitter panel :) They cannot get a patent on it . If they have, I will have it overturned.

Reasons?
1) It fails the non-obviousness requirement.
2) Prior Art . Multi 'bulb' lights were actually patented by Mole Richardson
3) There have been dozens of patented multi-bulb movie-making lights on the market. LitePanels is screwed.

I should also mention that MOST panels that use the 3-5mm nichia emitters cost very little to make. They are almost pure profit at retail.
Here's my cheezy video of my latest project to kill time while waiting for HURRICANE SANDY
https://vimeo.com/52211495
Click to expand...

I don't know what your resources are, but trying to break a patent, especially if 'big players' have paid licensing fees... is pretty expensive... an Apple Corp... or a Samsung... may try but more often than not, even with a paid legal staff... they pay the license rather than try to break the patent... The most recent battle between such giants was one of 'billions of dollars'... and so spending a couple $100M in legal fees was seen as 'worth it'...
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Either we accept that there is really nothing unique or original to LED arrays as anyone can do it for, as Zephyrnoid suggest, for $45 - in which case everyone (including the OP's link) is screwing us over by charging an arm-and-a-leg for something that is incredibly cheap or we accept that there is more then meets the eye. Unlike with tungsten lights where we see that all that meets the eye is IT (as the basics of the light are obvious: bulb + wires + electricity = light) i know from my experience that with LEDs it is not. For instance higher end panels maintain the current even as the batteries get discharged so the light's intensity stays the same. This much i know. Is that circuitry worth close to 2 grand? Having worked with gear that is on both ends of the price spectrum i've learned that you DO get what you paid for. Too bad that with LPs i kinda don't know what that $ goes into as for me the circuitry mentioned above is not worth the $2gs.
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Have been involved in electronics for my career... there are not too many circuits that are used in most consumer or even (or may be especially...) pro devices that 'warrant' the retail price... For consumers... 99% of the 'cost' is in developing the user friendly (sort of...) packaging... for 'pro-equipment' in many cases an ugly box, perhaps with some 'cool' paint, provided the stuff inside works for years... is sufficient... in that cast the 'cost' is using a level of quality of components that is commensurate with that expected long life of use...

One of the more significant 'reasons' for getting a patent, is if one has investors, and the goal is to 'go public'. Investors want something that is nearly 'tangible' to secure their investment. A patent provides that tangible (somewhat...) property. Trying to get investors, who have little or no technical expertise... other than that garnered on the golf links with their equally ignorant fellow investors... to do any different is almost impossible...

A local company... perhaps a lesser known name... Qualcomm... pretty much only creates 'patents'... then hit everyone that 'sounds like they are using a cell phone'... for licensing, unless the company can prove that it is not using a Qualcomm patent... (and try to get 'fair' licensing from them if one does less than $100M business a year...).

As for difference between a 'high end' vs. a 'low end' on the issue of voltage regulation... sure it could be the difference of a couple of bux worth of parts to regulate the voltage 'better'... and the 'cheap' company cheaped out...
 
I have no clue about electronics but i HAVE worked with cheap stuff that literally disintegrated in front of my eyes (knob on arri knock-off turned to dust (!!); fresnel on another arri-knock-off cracked for being exposed to "high temperature" of 300w bulb (!); a light stand felt to pieces as a light was being pulled out from it) so i know that even with simple stuff like Arri fresnel there is more to it then simply knocking-off the housing.

Likewise if this stuff is really so cheap as everyone claims then why the OP's link still charges exuberant $360???
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
I have no clue about electronics but i HAVE worked with cheap stuff that literally disintegrated in front of my eyes (knob on arri knock-off turned to dust (!!); fresnel on another arri-knock-off cracked for being exposed to "high temperature" of 300w bulb (!); a light stand felt to pieces as a light was being pulled out from it) so i know that even with simple stuff like Arri fresnel there is more to it then simply knocking-off the housing.

Likewise if this stuff is really so cheap as everyone claims then why the OP's link still charges exuberant $360???
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There is a rule of thumb about 'markup' and one is 3-4x cost of parts. For a competitive market, perhaps one would add up costs of parts, labor, cost of operations, etc. to come up with a price that would break even, then 'add profit' to set the minimum price for 'wholesale' sales.

The OP's example, had a 'regular price' of something like $899... but 'today... and today only, you can get this quality item for 'pennies'... $360'... I'll bet they can go even lower than that an still be profitable...

At this point I trot out my Earl "Madman" Muntz story... Muntz was an early distributor and then manufacturer of TV's. How he 'designed' his TV was to take a pair of cutters, and cut out components of a name brand manufacturer's product, until the TV stopped working... this indicate the 'excess' components... perhaps with a bit more 'intelligence' than willynilly sniping... but basically the idea was that most TV's at the time were 'overdesigned' and by eliminating some set of components the TV could be produced for cheaper, and the difference result in profits...

Some sources credit Muntz with the use of the initials TV to refer to Television... in any case he named his daughter Tee Vee...

Would you but a car or TV from this guy???

Earlmuntz.jpg
 
All true statements. Actually, LitePanels ENG lights are pure crap construction and they use emitters that cost a whopping =$.01 each. Sure they add LED color blending (where's my residual for that invention????) and the casings and heat management are critical too. No they are not simple and the LED emitter technology is becoming ever more complicated, and expensive. When amortized over the period of 50,000 operational hours, LED's use 1/100th the electricity of their tungsten counterparts and as we all know the lumens/watt are unbeatable.
Litepanels is freaking out because the Chinese are beating them at the designs and China is of course, the fabricator. If LitePanels cannot get PTO to strike ALL multi-emitter fixtures as 'reading' on thier pending patents, LitePanels is Screwed. Case in point is I'm negotiating with a ceiling panel maker in China a way to add a yolk and levels swtich to hier 13mm thick 12"X48" Ceiling Lights and dish them out at $600 per unit. That would pretty much be it for LitePanels.



Patryk_Rebisz said:
Either we accept that there is really nothing unique or original to LED arrays as anyone can do it for, as Zephyrnoid suggest, for $45 - in which case everyone (including the OP's link) is screwing us over by charging an arm-and-a-leg for something that is incredibly cheap or we accept that there is more then meets the eye. Unlike with tungsten lights where we see that all that meets the eye is IT (as the basics of the light are obvious: bulb + wires + electricity = light) i know from my experience that with LEDs it is not. For instance higher end panels maintain the current even as the batteries get discharged so the light's intensity stays the same. This much i know. Is that circuitry worth close to 2 grand? Having worked with gear that is on both ends of the price spectrum i've learned that you DO get what you paid for. Too bad that with LPs i kinda don't know what that $ goes into as for me the circuitry mentioned above is not worth the $2gs.
Click to expand...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
I don't know what your resources are, but trying to break a patent, especially if 'big players' have paid licensing fees... is pretty expensive... an Apple Corp... or a Samsung... may try but more often than not, even with a paid legal staff... they pay the license rather than try to break the patent... The most recent battle between such giants was one of 'billions of dollars'... and so spending a couple $100M in legal fees was seen as 'worth it'...
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My guess. I have to check next time I'm down at PTO. LitePanels probably secured the multi-emitter patent based on on the Mole Richardson patent expiration. I just have to check. You see, being first to invent is NOT the only way to secure a patent. I do have to check. Just been so damn busy myself.
 
wgzn;1986225481 a good shooter can work with whatever they're given. as long as all your sources suffer arguably the same problems. you'll be ok. and even then. a good array of gels will get you most of the way there... if people cared nearly as much about composition and storytelling as they do gear. we'd probably ALL be better off.[/QUOTE said:
Couldn't agree more! I work with a variety of lights depending on where I am and what I am doing and LEDs are part of my kit. When you are in the arctic flying on small planes you are limited. I have several LED light but it all began with a pricey but effective Zylight and that convinced me to buy a few of portable 300 led instruments with dimmers and Sony NP batteries. Nothing works better on a dreary rainy fall day than one of those little led lights on my subject to add some snap and it all happens in a New York minute.
I like them, but I like my Chimeras/Tota kits and Flo kits as well as my little Cool-Lux four fixture kit. But nothing beats the Creators light with a bounce or a silk.
Now if I can just get the HMI working.....
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I decided not not wait and bought the LED lights I was considering. I do not want one dime of my money going to LitePanels.
 
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