The Great DSLR Question

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BennyWhiskers

Active member
Hey guys, I've been out of the DSLR loop for the last 8 months or so and was wondering what cameras are being used and preferred right now.

Here's a list of cameras that I'm considering:*

5D2
7D
GH13
60D (more curious about this because of it's price, if anyone has examples or info about this camera please lemme know)

I'm looking for these qualities in the camera:

-Image (wanting to get the 35mm Cinematic Film Look)
-24fps
-Durability (overheating, battery usage, dependable etc)
-Under 5K
-Preferred not to have to hack it after purchasing it. Ialready botched a hack job on my old GH1 :( May it rest in peace
-Lens Availability
-Ability to shoot EFFECTIVE at night!*

I plan on shooting shorts for small film festivals, hence my attempts for the cinematic approach.

The most important thing I need to know is:
What's on the horizon? What does Panasonic, Canon and Sony plan to unleash in the near future?

That's it guys! If you have any advice or opinions, please share!
 
* no idea about the future
* I wouldn't consider the 7D or the GH13
* I would add the T3i (600D), the GH2, and also the sony NEX-5N
* for low light, the GH2 and the NEX-5N are the best options; they're also mostly clear of aliasing/moire issues
* some people love the GH2, some people don't like some subjective qualities of its images

more here:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/equipment/us_cam.html
 
BennyWhiskers said:
Here's a list of cameras that I'm considering:*

5D2
7D
GH13
60D (more curious about this because of it's price, if anyone has examples or info about this camera please lemme know)
Click to expand...

Start combing the DSLR forum here. There is everything you ever want to know or didn't want to know about these cameras and more.

I'm looking for these qualities in the camera:

-Image (wanting to get the 35mm Cinematic Film Look)
-24fps
-Durability (overheating, battery usage, dependable etc)
-Under 5K
-Preferred not to have to hack it after purchasing it. Ialready botched a hack job on my old GH1 :( May it rest in peace
-Lens Availability
Click to expand...

I still shoot often with the 7D and love it, but I have invested heavily in the equipment and lenses to support it. These cameras - like all cameras - need other tools to bring out their best.

-Ability to shoot EFFECTIVE at night!*
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What do you mean by effective? All of the DSLRs you mentioned will have weak s/n ratios with nothing but the ambient light level at night. You have to light for DSLRs - even more so than most cinema cameras, from my experience. You will constantly be fighting the noise floor if you do not bring proper lighting. But, again, I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "effective," so I could be preaching to the choir.

I plan on shooting shorts for small film festivals, hence my attempts for the cinematic approach.

The most important thing I need to know is:
What's on the horizon? What does Panasonic, Canon and Sony plan to unleash in the near future?

That's it guys! If you have any advice or opinions, please share!
Click to expand...

A few things -

Never, ever be afraid to rent. If you are going to spend the time and money to make a quality short film, it may be worth it for you to rent something like the FS100 or F3. They are incredibly affordable cameras. If you are going to be shooting every other day, though, a DSLR could be a perfect tool for you. Also, find a good producer; he or she may have great contacts that negate the camera issue completely. I just directed a short I wrote, and my producer got us an entire Epic package and most of the camera crew for free. The rental for all that alone would have cost us more than half our budget.

What's on the horizon? Nothing tomorrow or the next day. Everything is speculation right now with hints and whispers from Canon on a cinema DSLR in 2012, but it will likely not be under $5,000 - that is entirely, however, my guess. If you're interested, search the forums for "Canon C series DSLR." I think there is a thread up about them now. My advice would be to buy what works for you now, as there will always be another, better camera, but that shouldn't stop you from doing what you want.
 
What do you mean subjective qualities of it's images? I'm realizing now that the gh2 should be considered as one of my main options.

I'm completely unfamiliar with the T3i and NEX-5N, I'll have to do more research!

Also, thanks for the link!
 
I will definitely go through the other forums and see what the users are saying!

What's your favorite thing about the 7D? Where does it lag for you?

By effective I mean, being able to shoot at night (with proper lighting) and not have to worry about the noise to much.

I would love to rent an F3 or FS100 but I live in Alaska and the market up here is scarce to say the least. That's good to know that the horizon is just speculation as always and I will definitely check out the Canon C.

Thanks for your help!
 
BennyWhiskers said:
What do you mean subjective qualities of it's images? I'm realizing now that the gh2 should be considered as one of my main options.
Click to expand...

what I mean is that some people don't like the look of the images that the GH2 delivers; they're cleaner (no aliasing/moire), have a lot more detail, and (with the hack) the codec is a lot better (and all that is objective); but some people argue that the sensor is too small, that the colors are not as nice as with other cameras, and in general that the image is not sexy (and all that is subjective)

check out the comments at the end of this article:
http://prolost.com/blog/2011/11/21/red-scarlet-canon-c300-and-the-paradox-of-choice.html#comments

and also this (no GH2 mentioned, it's not my cup of tea):
http://www.similaar.com/foto/equipment/us_cam.html
 
BennyWhiskers said:
What's your favorite thing about the 7D? Where does it lag for you?
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I bought it for HDMI out while recording, it's ease of use, well-built metal body, adaptability to Nikon mount lenses, and, of course, the almost-S35mm-sized sensor. I think it's very user-friendly for what it is (I came from the photo world, not video), and it's image, when treated right, can be quite good.

Unfortunately, I feel it falls short in image sharpness, signal-to-noise (s/n) ratio, and color reproduction. I am often fighting to get skin tones accurate in-camera and in the grade. I rarely shoot more open than F4, and I'm a huge noise Nazi. So I have to bring more lights to set when I shoot on a 7D than when I shoot on something far more sensitive, like the F3, which also handles skin tones beautifully.

I like the 7D for its size, and it was a great camera to get me started in video production. I will likely upgrade soon to something like the FS100, but, it's hard to go wrong with this trusty DSLR.

I have not shot on any of the GH cameras. Although I'd like to, I'm not thrilled that one has to hack the camera in order to get the most out of it. I, for one, am very glad Canon barricaded the 7D from hacking.

By effective I mean, being able to shoot at night (with proper lighting) and not have to worry about the noise to much.
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Well, you will always be fighting the noise floor on the camera, but if you at least light your talent properly, the noise in the blacks will often be unnoticeable on a TV or projected screen.
 
the GH2, spec for spec is about the best dslr going. more shooting options. more frame rates. more formats. arguably higher ISO with less grain. fewer issues with moire / aliasing. not to mention NO CLIP LENGTH LIMITS. but there is something about the canon aesthetic that people are drawn to. even as a shooter, who knows that the GH2 will out spec and is more flexible than the canon. there is something about the 5Dll that i still enjoy.

at the end of the day though. its a discussion of horses for courses. EVERY dslr (at any price) has its share of good and not so good points.
ive owned or used every major dslr available. and ive said before. if i could only have one dslr. whichever one i had, there would be times i wished that i had the other.
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
Unfortunately, I feel it [the 7D] falls short in image sharpness, signal-to-noise (s/n) ratio, and color reproduction. I am often fighting to get skin tones accurate in-camera and in the grade.
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With regard to the S/N ratio and color reproduction, have you tried using the ISO 160 multiples (for the S/N ratio) and the Faithful or CineStyle picture styles (for good skin tones)?

I find that when using ISO 160, 320, 640, and sometimes 1250 the S/N ratio is actually quite good. I also did tests of the Neutral picture style (the conventional wisdom) vs. Faithful, and I ended up picking Faithful 10 times out of 10. According to Canon, Faithful has the most accurate color reproduction of the built in picture styles. This was before CineStyle came out, I find that once you apply the S curve, it compares most closely with Faithful as far as color reproduction is concerned. I'm also using lots of tungsten lights, which of course have a CRI of 100.

When I combine all of these factors together on my T2i and give it proper light, I find that I end up with very low noise and very nice skin tones. I haven't done an A/B test against another DSLR side by side though, so it's totally conceivable that something else might be a little better.

It's definitely true about the sharpness, but oh well. Sharpness is a little overrated sometimes anyway (I said sometimes).
 
robotsound said:
With regard to the S/N ratio and color reproduction, have you tried using the ISO 160 multiples (for the S/N ratio) and the Faithful or CineStyle picture styles (for good skin tones)?

I find that when using ISO 160, 320, 640, and sometimes 1250 the S/N ratio is actually quite good. I also did tests of the Neutral picture style (the conventional wisdom) vs. Faithful, and I ended up picking Faithful 10 times out of 10. According to Canon, Faithful has the most accurate color reproduction of the built in picture styles. This was before CineStyle came out, I find that once you apply the S curve, it compares most closely with Faithful as far as color reproduction is concerned. I'm also using lots of tungsten lights, which of course have a CRI of 100.

When I combine all of these factors together on my T2i and give it proper light, I find that I end up with very low noise and very nice skin tones. I haven't done an A/B test against another DSLR side by side though, so it's totally conceivable that something else might be a little better.

It's definitely true about the sharpness, but oh well. Sharpness is a little overrated sometimes anyway (I said sometimes).
Click to expand...

Yup, I shoot everything at 160 or 320. Only rarely have I had to push to 640 in a controlled setup. I always bring enough lights to shoot at 320 indoors. From my own ISO noise tests, I concur with the general understanding that 160 multiples are better.

I've used every picture style in the known universe. I shot a short film with Technicolor Cinestyle and it nearly made me hurl. Everything was properly exposed using the same field monitors and tools I always use with every camera. Watching the dailies from the first day, the noise in the blacks was so terrible - and this was from viewing it on a calibrated CRT where nominal noise disappears. Everything under 50 IRE had odious noise contamination.

My default picture style for almost everything is Marvel's Cinestyle. I've come to like it, and I feel it gives me the right latitude without pushing the blacks so far that it raises the noise floor, and it handles skin tones decently. I also shoot most things white balanced for 5600K, the native white balance of the sensor; 3200K can induce noise slightly.

I don't have huge problems with skin tones, but I am also partially spoiled from shooting so many other projects on simply better cameras. Most of the expendable income from those jobs has been invested in the other pieces of kit and in lenses instead of a new camera, as much as I would like something else. All of those investments are viable on any camera system I'm contracted to work with, so they pay for themselves, whereas getting something new, like the FS100, would not be as readily profitable, as much as I like the camera. (OK...I'm getting off on a tangent.)

The 7D's main problem with skin tones is the potential for a nasty color shift, no matter your light source's CRI. This is from its inability to handle detail - and faces are very detailed - which generates color contaminated artifacts in between the usable pixels. I find these artifacts like to be green, especially in dark skin. I don't complain about this much because I correct it in the grade - pulling out green induces magenta; pull back on the blue and you get a nice bit of orange in the skin; ta da - but that's when I see the softness of the image really come through. It can be fine for some things, especially when you shoot stopped up, since so little of the image is in acceptable focus, but I often shoot around F4.8 - F5.6, so I prefer things in focus look like they're in focus. I spend a lot of time in post applying an unsharp mask to the talent's eyes.


All that said...I do enjoy the positives of this camera, and I have made some fantastic images with it. It has paid for itself numerous times, and I can bring in cash from photo jobs, too.

I have also watched it fail horribly - at no fault other than mine because I pushed the camera beyond where it can go. It is, after all, not a video camera.
 
Some good advice mentioned here, but I'd to address a few things:

Jordan Scott Price said:
I bought it for HDMI out while recording, it's ease of use, well-built metal body, adaptability to Nikon mount lenses, and, of course, the almost-S35mm-sized sensor. I think it's very user-friendly for what it is (I came from the photo world, not video), and it's image, when treated right, can be quite good.
Click to expand...

Most of those reasons apply to all HDSLRs and aren't unique to the 7D.
Actually, aside from the metal body, those are all reasons people these days praise the GH2.
The GH2 is actually compatible with far more lenses than the EOS mount (even 16mm C-mount and Canon FD), supports clean HDMI out at 1080 60i, and if using an external recorder can output 4:2:2 color (That was a bit of a shock to me!).
Some people don't like the size of the Micro 4/3rds size sensor saying it is so much smaller than Canon's APS-C, but there is a lot of misunderstanding about how the GH2 works in video mode vs Canon. The "almost S35mm sensor" on your 7D is actually cropped down to 16:9 when shooting video (you lose the top and bottom of your sensor), while the GH2's unique M4/3rds sensor actually crops UP (photo mode is cropped at 4:3, switching to video mode actually gets a wider FOV). The end result is that the GH2 and Canon APS-C have roughly the same FOV in video mode.

I have not shot on any of the GH cameras. Although I'd like to, I'm not thrilled that one has to hack the camera in order to get the most out of it. I, for one, am very glad Canon barricaded the 7D from hacking.
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To each their own, hacks aren't for everyone. But why are you *happy* they barricaded it? That's actually one of the reasons I strongly recommend the t2i/t3i and 60D over the 7D for video. People have more options if they want them but don't have to use them if they don't. That's like a Canon loyalist saying they are upset Canon allows the use of third party lenses on their cameras. Sure, a Canon 24 F/1.4 is a really nice lens, but its nice to know you can throw a Nikon F on an adapter and get more for your money, isn't it?

For the record, the Magic Lantern "hack" isn't really a hack- its more like a plugin that sits on top of your canon menu and adds some features. It doesn't actually change the camera's firmware and runs off the SD card. If you don't want it, all you have to do is swap SD cards (or format the one you are using) and it goes back to normal. Having the ability to use something when necessary is better than not having the option to begin with, isn't it?

Well, you will always be fighting the noise floor on the camera, but if you at least light your talent properly, the noise in the blacks will often be unnoticeable on a TV or projected screen.
Click to expand...
Jordan Scott Price said:
What do you mean by effective? All of the DSLRs you mentioned will have weak s/n ratios with nothing but the ambient light level at night. You have to light for DSLRs - even more so than most cinema cameras, from my experience. You will constantly be fighting the noise floor if you do not bring proper lighting. But, again, I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "effective," so I could be preaching to the choir.
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Funny, because one of the things that got people excited about shooting DSLR video was the better low-light ability compared to larger and more expensive cameras. Now that there are so many large chip big cameras with interchangeable lenses, it has sort of leveled the playing field IMO. But I find it kind of ironic that we're saying DSLRs need more light than normal now.

Again, not to tout the GH2 too much, but it has become sort of a legend around the forums when it comes to high ISO and noise. A lot of these videos being shot in next-to-nothing light (like this one, for example if you haven't seen it yet: http://vimeo.com/32177879 ) have less noise than if they had been shot on film stock. Also helps that the M4/3rds mount has some interesting fast lenses, including that Noktor F/0.95 one.

I'm not saying the GH2 is the perfect DSLR (although I am rather impressed with it overall), it definitely has its pros and cons. I still like the T2i for its price to performance ratio, and the ability to record audio directly with Magic Lantern's ability to fully control the preamps and monitor live via headphones. Makes a good all-in-one for next to nothing in price, and has roughly the same IQ as all the other Canons (save for the 5D).
 
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I don't mean to sound like the 7D is the better of the two cameras. I was just answering the question "Why did I buy it?"

For one, I bought it around the time the T2i came out - over 18 months ago - long before the GH2's days. Full HD out was a big deal, and so was the low-light capability, yes, but now there are better options, of course. Hell, the NEX-5N looks to be outperforming the 7D. But that wasn't the question asked.

The reason I am against the hacking and all that non-sense is I expect that the camera I buy off the shelf to be what the manufacturer created - today, tomorrow, next week. I don't like the idea that some new hack or plug-in or whatever could be around the corner that will make my camera better. That may sound ridiculous to some, but I like getting to know my camera, not having to constantly update it with the newest, latest, and greatest hack - not having to beta test something that could brick the camera. This is more relevant to GH users than Canon with Magic Lantern.

This is a personal opinion, not a doctrine for everyone to live by. I'm sure plenty are enjoying the benefits of ML on their T2i's and 5DII's. That's just not what I want in a camera. I know others agree that they expect the specs of the camera they buy to come from the manufacturer, not the internet. We shouldn't have to hack our cameras to make them great.
 
The reason I am against the hacking and all that non-sense is I expect that the camera I buy off the shelf to be what the manufacturer created - today, tomorrow, next week. I don't like the idea that some new hack or plug-in or whatever could be around the corner that will make my camera better
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rotf, It pisses me off to. I get really irritated at these hackers for making my camera better than the manufacturer could. I love it when my cameras go obsolete in six monthes. :)
 
maranfilms said:
rotf, It pisses me off to. I get really irritated at these hackers for making my camera better than the manufacturer could. I love it when my cameras go obsolete in six monthes. :)
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Not the point at all.

My point is I want to know what I'm buying. Period. I want to look at the specs of five different products and be able to choose the one that suits my needs.

The hacking situation muddies the waters for me. I shouldn't have to hack my camera to get the best out of it. I want the manufacturer to do their best to give me the best for a price. There's a point where all the third-party stuff just starts to get annoying to me.

Hit the "New Posts" button, and every other thread is "Which hack for...," "A new hack with XX bit rate, etc.," "Check out this new hack..."

I'm not against improvement, just the method.
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
Not the point at all.

My point is I want to know what I'm buying. Period. I want to look at the specs of five different products and be able to choose the one that suits my needs.

The hacking situation muddies the waters for me. I shouldn't have to hack my camera to get the best out of it. I want the manufacturer to do their best to give me the best for a price. There's a point where all the third-party stuff just starts to get annoying to me.

Hit the "New Posts" button, and every other thread is "Which hack for...," "A new hack with XX bit rate, etc.," "Check out this new hack..."

I'm not against improvement, just the method.
Click to expand...

I hear that, it gets out of control sometimes. Its hard to keep up, especially when there is admittedly no one in charge of quality control. Not all hacks are necessarily good- I used to be involved in custom firmwares for early HTC phones, and I recall some rom based on an unreleased update was all the rage... until I pointed out to someone that the stock rom actually ran faster and better. Everyone was so excited by the "hack" that they lost sight of whether or not this was beneficial or not.

But I'm a big fan of pushing hardware past the manufacturer's intended limits. Remember, every manufacturer is in the business of making money, and sometimes doing that means NOT giving the consumer everything they want. I can guarantee you that Canon does not want you to be using Nikon lenses on your 7D.

Do you remember when Apple started this nasty habit of soldering their RAM chips? Supposedly they started soldering memory down so you couldn't upgrade it yourself, before users complained and they stopped (I've heard they actually started doing this again on recent models). I bought PCs that year. Take away my ability to customize my hardware and make it work the way *I* want, and you have lost a customer. I'm glad Canon and Panasonic haven't locked down most of their models, I wouldn't purchase their products if they had.

Again, to each their own. Just adding a little perspective. Some of these hacks are VERY worth it.
 
Oh, there's no question some of the hacks are beneficial. And I don't mean to tell anyone what to do or not do with their camera. I think striving to get the best is noble.

The fact that, to get the best, one has to rely on hacks and not the OEM is what I don't like.

Of course Canon doesn't want me using anything other than their lenses on the 7D, but a $15 piece of metal is an accessory, in my opinion, no different from the cage the camera sits in, the HDMI cable from Amazon running out the back, the tripod supporting the whole thing...

And Canon not giving me everything I want maintains competition between camera manufacturers and keeps prices down, so, again, I'm not heartbroken about the 7D being Fort Knox'd from hacking. :)
 
Everybody is free to do whatever they want with their own camera, but I shoot the 5D with OEM firmware only, no Magic Lantern. If it offered something earth shaking (60 fps, fulls res HDMI out) I'd consider it, but it doesn't because it can't (processor limitations of the camera).

I don't agree you necessarily need MORE light with DSLR, you just need more carefully designed light. The very narrow dynamic range and tendency to blow out the highlights in very ugly fashion with pretty much all digital cameras means you have to weigh those limitations when you design the lighting.

Bottom line is you can make good looking film with any of the major players if you play to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses. I prefer the look of the 5D, you might not.
 
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