The FS700 4K Solution!
- Thread starter Grug
- Start date
skibovision
Active member
wow that looks like a nightmare
Hrrrmmm....
rogar-Kriz(DBG):
Nice pic! Seems familiar.:laugh:
It looks like one of those 35mm adapter rigs. We're back in time.
Grug
Veteran
A man gets lazy typing from his phone! :thumbsup:
On the plus(?) side, at least it's in a single united package which sits inline with the camera on rails - so balancing it hopefully won't be outrageous.
LOL. It looks pretty outrageous. Not fun to use at all. Seems like it's sticks only. I guess you could shoulder rig that thing, but you will definitely put on muscle mass. Seems like the only real hope is if someone like Black Magic or Atomos makes something a little more user friendly in size.
Could mount like a counter weight on a full shoulder rig (if using a long enough cable): http://cinescopophilia.com/the-sony-fs700-hxr-ifr5-4k-recorder-from-interbee/
My 4K* GoPro 3 fits in my hand
* 12fps, more likely 3K or so and highly compressed.
My 4K* GoPro 3 fits in my hand
* 12fps, more likely 3K or so and highly compressed.
Come on now. Don't be a sissy. :tongue:
It's bad, but not that bad. Try shouldering a Genesis or 435.
True North
Well-known member
Some day in the not too distant future, we are going to see pictures likes this and all have a good hardy laugh at the stuff we used to lug around. It is what it is, it's 4k but yeeeesh that is one ugly looking rig and doesn't look like much fun to operate. Ergonomically it looks like a nightmare. It's surprising to me that Sony puts out something like this on the Pro end of their business because they are noted for excellent consumer designs
brotherian
Member
This is I guess a 4K solution, but it's not really practical is it? I think someone else mentioned it, but it is remarkable that this is an 'upgrade' plan that's been designed and planned by a single company. If there were multiple third-parties being used to prize 4K out of the FS700 then an unwieldy beast like this isn't all that inconceivable, but that it's all Sony is a huge disappointment.
Almost as if they don't really want FS700 users shooting 4K in the first place!
Almost as if they don't really want FS700 users shooting 4K in the first place!
Jusgorilla
Well-known member
puts me off quite frankly. That's ridiculous. I'd rather save up a bit, shop around, sell the FS700 and then buy something else ( but by then i'm sure there will be an even wider selection of cams/solutions to fit the bill) maybe even an oldie but a very goodie F35 for 10k - 12k with an external recorder? (and say goodbye to the 240fps i hear you say?, yawn, bored of that SSM already)
Yes, I get that sense as well. Sony lured many people in with the 4K promise, but now they don't really want people to use it for 4K. This upgrade feels like a loophole - legally they are filling the obligation, but just barely, and in a way that very few sane people will use it. Originally, I was thinking a recorder the size of an Atomos or something like that, but this? Just garbage.
If they want the FS700 to be an HD camera, they should at least give us a better internal compression, then it would somewhat make up for the disappointing 4K. Or maybe even 2.5K to a reasonable recorder, that way the sensor is somewhat being utilized.
blackdogdylan
Active member
honestly guys, I just don't think it's that bad. and here's why:
1. the FS700 already kicks out great 1080p (and highspeed) for a very reasonable cost. add an external recorder like a nanoflash or PIX, and you've got instant broadcast quality. we always knew the 4K would be in the future and involved an external recorder (not an onboard solution.) did I wish it was a bit more elegant? sure. but, let's face it, it's Sony (Soon Only Not Yet) and if this is the only option that ever exists, it's still 4K RAW FOR A VERY REASONABLE COST. and it's not that horribly unergonomic.
2. in light of Sony's nearly SHOCKING firmware timeline for the F55 & F5, I'd say those of us FS700 owners are positioned quite nicely. those cameras won't be able to do highspeed until nearly 2014. the F55 won't even be able to do any onboard 4K XAVC recording until September of this year! talk about bait and switch. now THAT is some false advertising. if I had those cameras on pre-order, I would be seriously pissed. but I don't. I have the FS700 and I use it all the time, right now.
3. and this is kind of related to number 2. the 4K solution is accomplished with what? the AXS-R5 recorder (which can take standard V-mount bricks if you want a less expensive/slimmer profile) and the HXR-IFR5. the primary purpose of the HXR-IFR5 is what? to serve as an interface (because there are no buttons/controls on the recorder!) and to convert the 4K 12bit RAW data stream spitting out of the 3G-SDI into whatever wacky pin connection the recorder takes. so what does that mean? it means unlike the F55, unlike the F5, the FS700 is able to output a 4K RAW stream on a single 3G cable that other third party recorders (that already have the buttons/controls included ; ) should be able to decode. Dan Keaton of Convergent Design has already stated it could happen. me? I'd MUCH rather have the option of a 3rd party recorder anyway... just a matter of Sony opening it up. my guess is that they're stalling as long as they can to not undercut F5 & F55 sales (hence why all of those other manufacturers of recorders are staying tight-lipped and mysterious.) but I'd much rather have a choice, eventually. who knows how long before such a choice exists with the other cameras?
so I say, bring on the firmware update allowing 4K output and the bulky/poorly named HXR-IFR5/AXS-R5 recorder option! the sooner it happens, the sooner other choices can land on the table. I see no reason why the Gemini shouldn't support it soon enough (Sony allowing.) in the meantime, enjoy the FS700 for what it does now.
- Dylan Sanford
vimeo.com/dylansanford
1. the FS700 already kicks out great 1080p (and highspeed) for a very reasonable cost. add an external recorder like a nanoflash or PIX, and you've got instant broadcast quality. we always knew the 4K would be in the future and involved an external recorder (not an onboard solution.) did I wish it was a bit more elegant? sure. but, let's face it, it's Sony (Soon Only Not Yet) and if this is the only option that ever exists, it's still 4K RAW FOR A VERY REASONABLE COST. and it's not that horribly unergonomic.
2. in light of Sony's nearly SHOCKING firmware timeline for the F55 & F5, I'd say those of us FS700 owners are positioned quite nicely. those cameras won't be able to do highspeed until nearly 2014. the F55 won't even be able to do any onboard 4K XAVC recording until September of this year! talk about bait and switch. now THAT is some false advertising. if I had those cameras on pre-order, I would be seriously pissed. but I don't. I have the FS700 and I use it all the time, right now.
3. and this is kind of related to number 2. the 4K solution is accomplished with what? the AXS-R5 recorder (which can take standard V-mount bricks if you want a less expensive/slimmer profile) and the HXR-IFR5. the primary purpose of the HXR-IFR5 is what? to serve as an interface (because there are no buttons/controls on the recorder!) and to convert the 4K 12bit RAW data stream spitting out of the 3G-SDI into whatever wacky pin connection the recorder takes. so what does that mean? it means unlike the F55, unlike the F5, the FS700 is able to output a 4K RAW stream on a single 3G cable that other third party recorders (that already have the buttons/controls included ; ) should be able to decode. Dan Keaton of Convergent Design has already stated it could happen. me? I'd MUCH rather have the option of a 3rd party recorder anyway... just a matter of Sony opening it up. my guess is that they're stalling as long as they can to not undercut F5 & F55 sales (hence why all of those other manufacturers of recorders are staying tight-lipped and mysterious.) but I'd much rather have a choice, eventually. who knows how long before such a choice exists with the other cameras?
so I say, bring on the firmware update allowing 4K output and the bulky/poorly named HXR-IFR5/AXS-R5 recorder option! the sooner it happens, the sooner other choices can land on the table. I see no reason why the Gemini shouldn't support it soon enough (Sony allowing.) in the meantime, enjoy the FS700 for what it does now.
- Dylan Sanford
vimeo.com/dylansanford
Hey Dylan, remember the FS700 is an 8-bit 800h x 1000v x 1000 diagonal line resolution camera which also exhibits aliasing here and there. The F5 is a 10-bit presumably 1000h+/1000v+/1000d+ camera with internal support for high bitrate 422 10-bit LGOP MPEG2 as well as the new XAVC H.264 codec + 444 SR MPEG4, and we'd also expect better aliasing performance (as in little or none). The F5 is built more sturdily and along with many other features makes it a clear upgrade from the FS700. For 4K it will be 16-bit vs 12-bit for the FS700. Consider that "4K" really just means > HD. With the exception of the F65, none of the "4K" cameras can sample and deliver 4K resolution. Thus the FS700 might be something like 3.2K, the F5 could be 3.6K (making up that number), and the F55 3.8K (made up number), leaving the F65 with full 4K (even then, not quite, but not even RED (5K Bayer array) can match the F65 (8K Bayer array) at this point).
Coming from a 5D3, the FS700 with a Speed Booster (+ Nanoflash for max quality work) was an excellent upgrade. Being able to use Canon L lenses with a full frame FOV is very cool, finally with decent resolution compared to the 5D3 (which is fine for close up / people shots). Pro audio directly in the camera is excellent (really like the adjustable from shotgun mono to wide stereo performance of the Audio Technica 4029 Mid-Side mic. Nice not needing a Sound Devices preamp or recorder (haven't compared yet to the preamps in FS700, but so far the FS700 sounds great)).
Back to the 4K topic for the FS700- I think if I had a budget for a project that needed/required 4K, I'd want 10-bit and perhaps even RAW (which the FS700 could provide at 12-bits). Shooting 4K to crop/zoom to HD to allow for creative post work would be cool, however we'd need a true 4K image to start with, otherwise the final result will be softer than full HD.
Renting the Sony 4K gear or buying/renting a third party solution might be the way to go.
Coming from a 5D3, the FS700 with a Speed Booster (+ Nanoflash for max quality work) was an excellent upgrade. Being able to use Canon L lenses with a full frame FOV is very cool, finally with decent resolution compared to the 5D3 (which is fine for close up / people shots). Pro audio directly in the camera is excellent (really like the adjustable from shotgun mono to wide stereo performance of the Audio Technica 4029 Mid-Side mic. Nice not needing a Sound Devices preamp or recorder (haven't compared yet to the preamps in FS700, but so far the FS700 sounds great)).
Back to the 4K topic for the FS700- I think if I had a budget for a project that needed/required 4K, I'd want 10-bit and perhaps even RAW (which the FS700 could provide at 12-bits). Shooting 4K to crop/zoom to HD to allow for creative post work would be cool, however we'd need a true 4K image to start with, otherwise the final result will be softer than full HD.
Renting the Sony 4K gear or buying/renting a third party solution might be the way to go.
starcentral
Veteran
I think Sony might know more than the rest of us,, here is an F65:
starcentral
Veteran
Oh you mean "The Future Ahead of Schedule" was a little misleading hey? I'll @!%#'n say.
I agree with Dylan, the FS700 and 4k option is not to be under estimated. For $12-14k it can be had with an AJA Quad which will give you 12-bit raw linear gamma which will produce images far better than the FS700 is even capable of today.. just wait and see. There's no messing with the power behind RAW.
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blackdogdylan
Active member
of course. to be clear, the F5 & F55 (and F65 for that matter) are obviously superior (and more costly) camera systems. my point was only that the FS700 is still A LOT of bang for the buck. and even if what we see here is all that ever comes of its 4K RAW future, it's still pretty damned good.
for me, I'm far less excited about the 4K raster than I am RAW capabilities. 12 bit RAW is quite A LOT to work with. plenty for even most of my more "serious" jobs. and when it isn't, I'll simply rent the F5 or F55 and burden post with those MASSIVE 16 bit RAW 4K files ; )