Jarrett P. Morgan
Well-known member
Just out of curiosity, why do you say that the FS100 isn't a pro cam?
The FS100 - A different perspective.
- Thread starter pulpfiction007
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Just out of curiosity, why do you say that the FS100 isn't a pro cam?
dustylense
Veteran
To me, a pro camera is a camera in the hands of a pro.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Not to me; to me that's a professional using a camera. It doesn't elevate the tool itself to being a tool designed for professionals.
Jimi Hendrix could probably have played some wicked tunes on this...
http://www.amazon.com/Wow-Wee-Paper-Jamz-Guitar/dp/tags-on-product/B00342LJOW
But even if he did, would that elevate it to being a "professional guitar"? I wouldn't say so; I mean, in general, you don't see musicians using toys like that, they use Stratocasters and whatnot. Products that were designed to provide the capabilities that pros need.
A pro camera is designed to meet the workflow requirements, reliability requirements, connectivity requirements, and featureset requirements that professional are accustomed to having and using.
Sure, pros can choose to use amateur/consumer/prosumer gear but that doesn't make the camera itself a designed-for-professionals piece of equipment.
There are some products that are designed with the needs of the professional in mind. Simple case in point -- HDMI vs. HD-SDI. They both transport the same uncompressed digital video and audio signals, but there's an absolute gulf of difference between the professional acceptablility of, ruggedness of, security of, and reliability of, HD-SDI. It's a locking connector designed for long cable runs, it transports timecode and 24PsF, and every professional monitor has and uses HD-SDI. HDMI is a consumer standard that's made to plug a blu-ray player into a TV, not made for the changing and shifting requirements of a professional. Adam Wilt refers to HDMI as a "self-ejecting cable standard." And mini-HDMI is the worst.
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Ummm...what?
Alvise Tedesco
Well-known member
I don't understand the confusion?
The camera is an amalgamation of consumer components.
Hdmi only, sony alpha mount, no ND's, no timecode in/out, no genlock, (I doubt it has the depth of the F3 image controls)... etc.
The camera is literally useless to me on set. ( productions I work on require client monitoring, offboard recording, PL, and often multi camera matching)
The camera is an amalgamation of consumer components.
Hdmi only, sony alpha mount, no ND's, no timecode in/out, no genlock, (I doubt it has the depth of the F3 image controls)... etc.
The camera is literally useless to me on set. ( productions I work on require client monitoring, offboard recording, PL, and often multi camera matching)
dustylense
Veteran
Barry,
I'm primarily a stills shooter. I sold my "professional" canon 1Ds MK3 for a 5d mk2. And after that, many of my pro friends did the same.
Is it not stated, BY SONY, that the FS100 is targeted for the Indie film maker, wedding and event guys, or more say the "prosumer"? And here we have a MAJORITY of posts saying, "well, it's not a pro camera. So it's not for me". Is the 5d mark 2 a pro camera? I've seen PLENTY of PRO work done on it.
I recall A LOT of discussion about using a nanoflash on the AF100, and most of the users (including you) said they could NOT tell the difference between the Nano and AVCHD capture. Was your western project filmed with Nano and HD-SDI?
So what, there's a FS100. There's a AF100. I say, pick the one that suits you and works best for you.
The main difference I find between the 2 will be how each auto focuses. Lots of people like having auto focus, that works. I'll bet the FS100 will eat the af100 in that arena. For the wedding guy, that may make the difference. For the run and gunner that wants large chip, same applies. Which camera will better suit the guy jumping from HDSLR? Aren't both cameras targeted as such the device, as stated by both Panny and Sony? How will each of these cameras hold up against lets say a 5D MK3 if Canon includes a new codec with 422 at 50 m/bit and uncompressed HDMI out?
Both cameras are cool. Both will have their advantage. Neither will be on the next Transformers set. More cameras will come.
As for your Hendrix analogy. I have a Fender Strat. A top of the line american made custom one. I will say this. Hendrix would kick my ass with the Amazon $14 guitar. So you could give me a RED Epic, and Spielberg a GH2, and guess what? I'm sure your guess is correct.
I think the fs100 will be a hit, and sell very well, for those it's targeted at. For those where they think it's not pro, DON'T BUY IT! It's that simple.
I'm primarily a stills shooter. I sold my "professional" canon 1Ds MK3 for a 5d mk2. And after that, many of my pro friends did the same.
Is it not stated, BY SONY, that the FS100 is targeted for the Indie film maker, wedding and event guys, or more say the "prosumer"? And here we have a MAJORITY of posts saying, "well, it's not a pro camera. So it's not for me". Is the 5d mark 2 a pro camera? I've seen PLENTY of PRO work done on it.
I recall A LOT of discussion about using a nanoflash on the AF100, and most of the users (including you) said they could NOT tell the difference between the Nano and AVCHD capture. Was your western project filmed with Nano and HD-SDI?
So what, there's a FS100. There's a AF100. I say, pick the one that suits you and works best for you.
The main difference I find between the 2 will be how each auto focuses. Lots of people like having auto focus, that works. I'll bet the FS100 will eat the af100 in that arena. For the wedding guy, that may make the difference. For the run and gunner that wants large chip, same applies. Which camera will better suit the guy jumping from HDSLR? Aren't both cameras targeted as such the device, as stated by both Panny and Sony? How will each of these cameras hold up against lets say a 5D MK3 if Canon includes a new codec with 422 at 50 m/bit and uncompressed HDMI out?
Both cameras are cool. Both will have their advantage. Neither will be on the next Transformers set. More cameras will come.
As for your Hendrix analogy. I have a Fender Strat. A top of the line american made custom one. I will say this. Hendrix would kick my ass with the Amazon $14 guitar. So you could give me a RED Epic, and Spielberg a GH2, and guess what? I'm sure your guess is correct.
I think the fs100 will be a hit, and sell very well, for those it's targeted at. For those where they think it's not pro, DON'T BUY IT! It's that simple.
dustylense
Veteran
Then DON't BUY or THINK of using it. Look at the 5d MK2 Timur. Has none of what you mention! Doesn't stop Shane Hurlbut.
Usless because the FS100 has no PL? I've seen gh1's with PL adapted.
Barry_Green
Moderator
No argument there.
For stills, definitely yes. For video? Unquestionably not.
Sure. But that doesn't make it a professional video camera, it just makes it a video camera that pros have used.
Agreed, of course. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Evaluate each one for what it does, and recognize what it doesn't do, and acknowledge what the product doesn't do, and if you're willing or able to work around that.
Maybe by Sony, but not by Panasonic. Jan of Panasonic USA says that the AF100 is for the HPX170/HVX200/EX1 type of shooter who's been using a Letus or Brevis lens adapter and wants to get rid of that hassle.
Frankly I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Sony is, to my eyes, exactly engineered for that target market of graduating DSLR users. I think it is aimed at DSLR shooters who want to move up to the next level. It is a NEX, which is Sony's line of DSLR/camcorder hybrids. It doesn't have an ND filter wheel or HD-SDI or timecode sync or things like that, but the DSLR shooter never had those things anyway so they're much less likely to miss them. The AF100 is instead aimed at the pro shooter who's always had ND filters and HD-SDI and timecode sync and all those other things, and doesn't want to give those up, but who wants to add shallow DOF to their shooting arsenal. Or that pro shooter who had those things, made the step down to a DSLR to gain the shallow DOF, and really wishes they had all the other capabilities back. Now they can have what they wanted.
Does that mean the FS-100 is targeted at a broader market and might outsell the AF100? Maybe. So? We're not here arguing about which one's penis is bigger or which one will be the bigger hit in the marketplace. Instead we were discussing that it appears that each is aimed at a different segment of the market. To me that's a good thing -- differentiation helps the end user to decide which one is more appropriate for their use.
Seeing as a) such a product is currently only speculation, and b) even if it does exist, it'll still be a stills camera... I think any prosumer or above would still rather have either an FS100 or AF100. Unless, of course, their primary interest is in shooting stills, in which case the 5D Mark III would have a significant advantage there.
And, of course, there are those to whom the DSLR represents the pinnacle of form factor and engineering and end results. There are people who cannot fathom why anybody would spend more for an AF100 over a GH2, or more for an FS100 than a 60D, and who in fact think that pros are being "ripped off" or that they're stupid for thinking they need these higher-level products. For those people, I'm sure they would prefer a 5D Mark III over either of the alternatives. Fortunately for those people, there are plenty of DSLRs on the market, so they can buy what they want today and go shoot and hopefully quit trying to educate the pros on why it is that these people who have been shooting professionally for decades "don't know what they're doing".
That's what we've all been saying. There is no one simple magic bullet. Every product will have compromises, every one of them will have its share of drawbacks, and the only way to overcome all those drawbacks is by spending more (which is why more-expensive products exist on the market). So figure out what it is that YOU want, what it is that YOU need. Forget what everyone else says, who cares if Shane Hurlbut uses a 5D, what does that have to do with YOU? What do YOU shoot? What features do you require? Timur has a 5D. He bought an F3, and doesn't use the 5D for video unless the client forces him to. He knows what he needs, and he doesn't believe the FS100 fits that bill. That's his personal requirements. The FS100 doesn't fit my requirements, but the AF100 does. Maybe a 5D fits yours. So what does it matter to me if Shane Hurlbut uses a 5D? What should it matter to you if Timur uses an F3? It doesn't matter at all, not one pixel, not one bit.
Evaluate what each product does and choose the one that most suits your particular usage requirements, period.
Probably. But let me ask you this question -- did he use a $14 Amazon guitar (or that day's equivalent?) No? Why not?
Sure, but let me ask you this -- does Spielberg shoot his films on a GH2? No? Why not?
I agree 100%.
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The confusion is, you think because it doesn't conform to your needs, it's not a professional device. I say, with the features it has on it, I can make an income off this camera. And I am a professional videographer.
And there will be a PL mount for the camera, as well as other mounts. Check out the Sony promo vid. It clearly has a PL adapter. The F3 and AF100 don't have native PL mounts. Does that make them non-professional? It can also be monitored through the HDMI port, as well as offboard recording.
And tell me, do Panavision cameras come with ND filter wheels? Does the RED? the Epic? The Alexa? the D21? Any Aaton?
The Canon XF300 doesn't have HD/SDI, timecode in/out or genlock. Do you consider it a non-professional grade camera? Tell that to the many professional videographers who are making their living with it.
Whether this camera can perform to the level professional videographers/ cinematographers need and expect remains to be seen. What say we hold off on judging it until it's in general circulation?
S. Matthews
Well-known member
in terms of HD broadcast cam's it is definitly not professional feature level, but I don't think that is what it is meant to be. Not saying it is pro, just that buit in ND is a broadcast cam feature not many in cine style cam's (that I know of) and apparently it has timecode through hdmi but we are not sure on that yet so why the speculation of what it isn't before we know what it really is?
I could be wrong but we did fine with film camera's with no built in ND's for a while, as well as many of the other features that now define a "pro" camera whatever that is.
Maybe it's just me but I seem to think people are discussing two very different things here, and also defending their own decision making paths, but I can't read minds so who knows.
What market are we talking here one camera can be of professional level in one industry and not another(in terms of features and specialties), not quite what I am saying but for instance the 5d is a pro stills camera but not quite a pro video camera, for many more reasons than ND and timecode, but that does not mean you can work around it's shortcomings to produce professional level video.
have a good one! exciting times ahead... and now, have fun!
I could be wrong but we did fine with film camera's with no built in ND's for a while, as well as many of the other features that now define a "pro" camera whatever that is.
Maybe it's just me but I seem to think people are discussing two very different things here, and also defending their own decision making paths, but I can't read minds so who knows.
What market are we talking here one camera can be of professional level in one industry and not another(in terms of features and specialties), not quite what I am saying but for instance the 5d is a pro stills camera but not quite a pro video camera, for many more reasons than ND and timecode, but that does not mean you can work around it's shortcomings to produce professional level video.
have a good one! exciting times ahead... and now, have fun!
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Yep, I think that's exactly it.
This is also very true. I wouldn't want to use an AF100 to shoot a live event with!
dustylense
Veteran
Barry,
You state "Maybe by Sony, but not by Panasonic. Jan of Panasonic USA says that the AF100 is for the HPX170/HVX200/EX1 type of shooter who's been using a Letus or Brevis lens adapter and wants to get rid of that hassle.".
May I suggest you watch this, and countless others like it: (about 35 seconds in. Or RIGHT OFF THE TOP!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiJZ36wIXmU
WInning!
You state "Maybe by Sony, but not by Panasonic. Jan of Panasonic USA says that the AF100 is for the HPX170/HVX200/EX1 type of shooter who's been using a Letus or Brevis lens adapter and wants to get rid of that hassle.".
May I suggest you watch this, and countless others like it: (about 35 seconds in. Or RIGHT OFF THE TOP!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiJZ36wIXmU
WInning!
dustylense
Veteran
LOL, THis is you Barry. this time you beat Jan by 20 secs and went in at 15 secs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGtFZoSyhA&feature=related
Sorry Barry, but the power of the internet is too great.
So essentially, both sony AND PANNY have compared their cameras to people to jump FROM HDSLR's to these cameras. THAT IS THE TARGET MARKET, in Jan's and YOUR own words. Come on, count the times you say in this video, you say HDSLR or SLR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGtFZoSyhA&feature=related
Sorry Barry, but the power of the internet is too great.
So essentially, both sony AND PANNY have compared their cameras to people to jump FROM HDSLR's to these cameras. THAT IS THE TARGET MARKET, in Jan's and YOUR own words. Come on, count the times you say in this video, you say HDSLR or SLR.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Right -- it's "a high-def camcorder with a large imager." Not a DSLR in a different body. Again, if you ask Jan, she'll tell you exactly how she positions it. It is for those who are used to or appreciate pro camcorder features, and who are not willing to make the compromises that a DSLR asks of you.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm not Panasonic though. And that video was taken back in September before Panasonic had even stated what their official position on it was.
And this is getting a little silly, don't you think? With "Winning!" and playing "gotcha"? Why not just ask Jan what her official marketing position is on what the AF100 is and who it's aimed at?
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I think anyone trying to fully dictate whether any camera is professional enough is silly. There is A LOT of opinion involved in those statements.
For instance, my AF100 does not have Genlock, does that make it not pro?
Who gets to decide at how many features you are missing or have extra you are professional or not pertaining to equipment?
I think there is a BIG GREY area here. I *personally* think the FS100 is every bit as professional to me as the AF100. There are things they both lack that I think a professional camera should have, but, they are both BUDGET professional pieces of equipment.
Given that most videographers that shoot weddings I would consider professional, I think it is targeted for a segment of professional work, not just narrative work. People get so hyperfocused on THEIR use of PROFESSIONAL video acquisition, they fail to recognize that not every PROFESSIONAL application has all the same requirements.
Many people think that the onboard AVCHD is consumer level on the AF100. I don't, I think it's great, but I bet most people would agree that the P2 solution would be considered more robust and more professional (regardless of price).
The FS100 even has an SSD option?!? That's pretty professional to me.
See what I mean? It's all about opinion and needs. As a professional, only YOU can decide if it meets what YOU consider a professional piece of gear. Period. That's why no ones wrong
For instance, my AF100 does not have Genlock, does that make it not pro?
Who gets to decide at how many features you are missing or have extra you are professional or not pertaining to equipment?
I think there is a BIG GREY area here. I *personally* think the FS100 is every bit as professional to me as the AF100. There are things they both lack that I think a professional camera should have, but, they are both BUDGET professional pieces of equipment.
Given that most videographers that shoot weddings I would consider professional, I think it is targeted for a segment of professional work, not just narrative work. People get so hyperfocused on THEIR use of PROFESSIONAL video acquisition, they fail to recognize that not every PROFESSIONAL application has all the same requirements.
Many people think that the onboard AVCHD is consumer level on the AF100. I don't, I think it's great, but I bet most people would agree that the P2 solution would be considered more robust and more professional (regardless of price).
The FS100 even has an SSD option?!? That's pretty professional to me.
See what I mean? It's all about opinion and needs. As a professional, only YOU can decide if it meets what YOU consider a professional piece of gear. Period. That's why no ones wrong
Neither the FS100 or AF100 are clear cut winners in my opinion.
You have the panny which borrows a lot of parts from their consumer DSLR, and doesn't seem to resolve as well as one would expect, and then the FS100 which has a good imager but poor i/o features and lack of built in nd, etc.
There isn't a no-brainer in the under $7000 category, except for I think the Sony EX1R (10 bit, resolves ~1000 lines), which most people in this forum aren't even considering because of the shallow DOF kick we're on.
For paying clients though who sit by video village, you can't get around a good monitoring solution, and that's HD-SDI, and that's the Panny.
If you're the only one looking at the image, then FS100 should do you fine.
You have the panny which borrows a lot of parts from their consumer DSLR, and doesn't seem to resolve as well as one would expect, and then the FS100 which has a good imager but poor i/o features and lack of built in nd, etc.
There isn't a no-brainer in the under $7000 category, except for I think the Sony EX1R (10 bit, resolves ~1000 lines), which most people in this forum aren't even considering because of the shallow DOF kick we're on.
For paying clients though who sit by video village, you can't get around a good monitoring solution, and that's HD-SDI, and that's the Panny.
If you're the only one looking at the image, then FS100 should do you fine.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
Or if you are working on that big a production, with that kind of Revenue, you move up to the F3. Or if you are using an onboard LCD anyways, you can use something like the TV Logic monitors that convert the HDMI to HD-SDI and there you go. Or you go with the solution coming out from CMR soon that takes HMDI and sends it wirelessly to the video village. We used this on our last shoot and it worked FANTASTIC.
I just see it as, if youre paying 6grand.... and not getting those things... YOU are getting ripped off.... The EX3, AF100, EX1, HPX170, JVC somethign or other... all offer these kinds of functions built in ( save PL mount, *but the F3 comes with it). Thats my issue, its not even a "Prosumer camera!"....
Why are some people content with not having the tools they need? ( mind you i'm talking from the point of view of a DP for Films/commercials) Perhaps you dont need it if you are shooting weddings, events, and sports. Then the FS100 makes total sense.
Why are some people content with not having the tools they need? ( mind you i'm talking from the point of view of a DP for Films/commercials) Perhaps you dont need it if you are shooting weddings, events, and sports. Then the FS100 makes total sense.