The FS100 - A different perspective.

editman said:
I never say a 5DmkII is better than even a GH1 in a pure technical evaluation. It's probably alot worse than most video cameras and still we, and many others, have turned to this camera when doing commercials and directors, producers and clients love the way it turns out in the end. I know how bad it is and still when doing final grading it just feels right - for us a spot on substitute to 35mm film.

So don't argue it's a worse camera than many others like AF100, F3 and FS100 included because I now that but the aesthetic mimics how we and many others perceive 35mm film translated to digital video.
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Well, if the client loves it... then good.

But I think it's fair to say that many of us aren't working with your client. Many of us work with demanding clients who have expectations the Canon 5DmkII isn't optimal for meeting or exceeding.

For everyone turning to the 5DmkII because of how great it looks, I think there are many more turning to it because it's the most they can afford.

Right now, I own a PMW-F3. Give me a Ki Pro Mini, and I can fairly well match any look you can get out of the 5DmkII.

But hey - if your client like it... it sure costs less than most cameras.
 
I am not here to defend the 5dmark 2 but I have seen a lot, I mean a lot of commercial, music videos and shows (Mainly french TV) which are shot with it, that could have been shot on anything to a $ 200 000 camera. I think it is about the look. Sometimes defects turns out to be a style, a character to the image. Example are like vignettes and flares that are technically defects from lens but to many (like me) they are a certain style. In two years it might be completely different, but what I can see today in is very much in vogue.
 
Kholi, you lucky sob!
How do you guys get hold of cameras before they're released?? Please post pics and video!
And can you hit the white balance button without a pencil tip?
 
Had to take down my posts for now! But nothing but positive marks from me so far.

Will get footage, mini review, comparison pics etc when it's cleared.

Great cam!
 
Is it good enough to sell my af-100 for? That's the question. Lack of HD-SDI and ND, means it needs to catch up in a lot of other areas for me to actually switch. 10-bit would have been nice. Even my ex1 did 10-bit SDI. Not saying I wont switch (dont know much now), but they may have not offered enough to draw people away, only when it's released will we really know. I do love Sony though, I have really enjoyed their cams for a while now.
 
Viddovation said:
Well, if the client loves it... then good.

But I think it's fair to say that many of us aren't working with your client. Many of us work with demanding clients who have expectations the Canon 5DmkII isn't optimal for meeting or exceeding.

For everyone turning to the 5DmkII because of how great it looks, I think there are many more turning to it because it's the most they can afford.

Right now, I own a PMW-F3. Give me a Ki Pro Mini, and I can fairly well match any look you can get out of the 5DmkII.

But hey - if your client like it... it sure costs less than most cameras.
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I think everyone would like to shoot on something like an Alexa but as I heard from a producer (who always counts money) - "Why should I use a more expensive camera when a 5DmkII gets the job done?" I have my AF101 and believe me I'd rather shoot with it and I even done a 5DmkII setting for the AF camera to get as close as possible to how the 5DmkII looks. But still I have directors and producers turning to this camera instead of something technically better. I won't argue with them anymore and let them have the aesthetics of a Canon DSLR.
 
editman said:
I think everyone would like to shoot on something like an Alexa but as I heard from a producer (who always counts money) - "Why should I use a more expensive camera when a 5DmkII gets the job done?" I have my AF101 and believe me I'd rather shoot with it and I even done a 5DmkII setting for the AF camera to get as close as possible to how the 5DmkII looks. But still I have directors and producers turning to this camera instead of something technically better. I won't argue with them anymore and let them have the aesthetics of a Canon DSLR.
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Because real producers, know that their reputation is based on the quality of work they produce. The Good enough attitude, is starting to fade, because now there are options in the middle. They can have the cake ( lower cost) and eat it too (better images). AF100 and F3 ( and FS100) enable that.
 
+1

and also the fact that the used to be "good enough" camera is actually epic failing the productions. I've seen clients not wanting to work with a company again because the producer wanted to save cost shooting 5d on white screen with just someone talking. the short (with no change in wardrobe available) had moire all over it, and the client noticed it right away when it hit post. because of the monitoring tools, you can't pick up the aliasing until you review the footage after you record. Clients felt they wasted their money on inferior footage.

there have been plenty of nightmare stories where the camera has failed the production, because a DSLR isn't meant to do the things people have been forcing it to do. overheating holding up production, aliasing (killing the image), noise, and very awful looking noise at that (colored and streaks)

and it's true that without the dslr a lot of things wouldn't have been possible. the size, and when you do get that really good shot on. but it's reliability ratio in itself is low. a production should never have to fight the camera to get it to do what they need it to do. i think af100 and beyond is the most absolute solution.

and fyi, even in the situations where you really try your best to overcome the cameras limitations, it can still come back to bite you in the ass. I have footage I cut, and now about to do the grading in a few weeks. they shot 7d, ultra flat, fastest lens they could close up, and no patterned shirts, with very simple backgrounds. there is moire in the skin and eyeybrows because the actor had such fine detail in both areas. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
 
I could stop renting my 5DmkII and force them into the AF101 but then they might choose to use a RED instead. How strange it might sound. We've used 7D and 5D so many times but next job I guess is a RED camera based one and it'll be interesting to see what comes out.

I can understand people around me that looks at the final online master, due to be aired, and are satisfied with how it turned out. We did a commecial the other week and I have to say it looks excellent and I can't think of any other camera that would improve on the overall quality. I also think if you are used to work with a video camera then a DSLR is a nightmare and you would hate it. A DP I assists from time to time shoots using a 5D often with different production companys. He always run into problem when not using my set because there are so few people that have figured everything out when it comes to DSLR shooting.

But I concur with you guys that something ranging from a FS100 to a F3 or better is preferable from a shooters perspective. But it has nothing to do with how other perceives it. It's just futile to think any of these large sensor video cameras can kill of the hype of HD DSLR shooting.
 
vcfilms said:
Is it good enough to sell my af-100 for? That's the question. Lack of HD-SDI and ND, means it needs to catch up in a lot of other areas for me to actually switch. 10-bit would have been nice. Even my ex1 did 10-bit SDI. Not saying I wont switch (dont know much now), but they may have not offered enough to draw people away, only when it's released will we really know. I do love Sony though, I have really enjoyed their cams for a while now.
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Not sure if you were asking me this directly, but I couldn't tell one person yes or no without knowing what they shoot. I'll stay mute until tomorrow, but so far I know which camera I'd go for if I had to choose between the three.

We'll see in a day.
 
editman said:
I could stop renting my 5DmkII and force them into the AF101 but then they might choose to use a RED instead. How strange it might sound. We've used 7D and 5D so many times but next job I guess is a RED camera based one and it'll be interesting to see what comes out.

I can understand people around me that looks at the final online master, due to be aired, and are satisfied with how it turned out. We did a commecial the other week and I have to say it looks excellent and I can't think of any other camera that would improve on the overall quality. I also think if you are used to work with a video camera then a DSLR is a nightmare and you would hate it. A DP I assists from time to time shoots using a 5D often with different production companys. He always run into problem when not using my set because there are so few people that have figured everything out when it comes to DSLR shooting.

But I concur with you guys that something ranging from a FS100 to a F3 or better is preferable from a shooters perspective. But it has nothing to do with how other perceives it. It's just futile to think any of these large sensor video cameras can kill of the hype of HD DSLR shooting.
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if they jump from using your 7D to a Red, they have budget hey aren't telling you about. Noone makes the jump from a $150 5D rental, to a $1250 REDone rental cause you offered them a $350 AF100 rental.
 
editman said:
I could stop renting my 5DmkII and force them into the AF101 but then they might choose to use a RED instead. How strange it might sound. We've used 7D and 5D so many times but next job I guess is a RED camera based one and it'll be interesting to see what comes out.

I can understand people around me that looks at the final online master, due to be aired, and are satisfied with how it turned out. We did a commecial the other week and I have to say it looks excellent and I can't think of any other camera that would improve on the overall quality. I also think if you are used to work with a video camera then a DSLR is a nightmare and you would hate it. A DP I assists from time to time shoots using a 5D often with different production companys. He always run into problem when not using my set because there are so few people that have figured everything out when it comes to DSLR shooting.

But I concur with you guys that something ranging from a FS100 to a F3 or better is preferable from a shooters perspective. But it has nothing to do with how other perceives it. It's just futile to think any of these large sensor video cameras can kill of the hype of HD DSLR shooting.
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No one is saying DLSR killer here....in fact I still believe a T2i at $699 is probably the most bang for your buck ever achieved in the video world...or a GH1 for lord knows how cheap. In my mind there are 3 to 4 different markets for these large sensor cameras (I'm talking ownership here)

Ultra low budget: $3000/4000 and under for camera and basic accessories - This is the HUGE DLSR contingent....people who in the past would get a prosumer 3 chipper with or without 35mm adapter. Some even get everything for under $2000 These guys will keep on with DLSRs because it's still the only large sensor game in town.

Low budget: $5000/10,000 and under: These owners may have an EX1, XHA1, HVX200, HMC150, etc, but bought DLSRs to either compliment or completely change their work because of the aesthetic you're talking about.........THIS is the crowd who WILL move on......Because they can now get the aesthetic, without the pain. Yes, there are exceptions and some will use DLSRs for B cams but believe you me- You give me $7000 to $8000 to spend on a camera...I won't come back with a Canon DLSR and a frankenrig, I'll come back with an FS100 or an AF100!

Market 3: $10,000 and up: Productions or people that use out of convenience/ form factor/low cost per unit- great image for special situations, shows, etc. like the House season finale or Black Swan subway....Money is usually not the main factor here.
 
Kholi said:
Oh, and I think I CAN say that there isn't an issue with any of the buttons on the camera. hahaha. I could punch 'em all pretty a-okay.
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I suspected as much. A previous reviewer's comments on the buttons bordered on the incredulous to me. I've never had such an issue with any camera, ever. That includes my VG10, which has truly miniscule controls.
 
TimurCivan said:
if they jump from using your 7D to a Red, they have budget hey aren't telling you about. Noone makes the jump from a $150 5D rental, to a $1250 REDone rental cause you offered them a $350 AF100 rental.
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Forget about a 7D because it's nothing like a 5D to get the biggest sensor for video shooting. I don't think they would choose a RED purely based on budget but based on something else. Often it's to work with another DP who owns a RED or prefers it rather than getting a certain look. That's why I might take an AF101 if I'm DP. It's a tool I know and can work with comfortable. I guess you feel the same about your F3.
 
editman said:
Forget about a 7D because it's nothing like a 5D to get the biggest sensor for video shooting. I don't think they would choose a RED purely based on budget but based on something else. Often it's to work with another DP who owns a RED or prefers it rather than getting a certain look. That's why I might take an AF101 if I'm DP. It's a tool I know and can work with comfortable. I guess you feel the same about your F3.
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i bought the F3 to rent it out. i'm most comfortable on R1. TheF3 is a new kid on the block. i dont really know it yet.... learning though.
 
7d is better then 5d in at least 1 feature-SLOW MO-50p....thats why i like it more then 5d.
 
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