The F35 at NIGHT

SJX said:
Interesting discussion. So is the F35 sensor 4K or not? There seems to be more people saying it is than the other way around. I guess it depends if you considered the Red One 4k or not. But I remember Panavision saying that if the Red One was 4k the Genesis was too.
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The sensors aren't easily comparable as the Red One had a bayer sensor wheras the Sony F35 has a full RGB sensor. This means that the F35 has full RGB colour information for every single pixel whereas the Red One has a bayer sensor that is basicaly a monochrome 4K sensor with a filter on it to assign colour to various pixels and then it extracts colour information from that. This is why you have cameras like the new Epic Dragon Monochrome which really will be able to deliver 6K but in B&W. The Red One loses resolution to the bayer filter but it also doesn't have as much colour information for its pixels, so the quality of the actual pixels is lower in colour terms. That's a very rough explanation.

I've done some more research into the Sony F35 sensor and theres very little info but it would appear from what I can tell that I am wrong on some points. The sensor is a bit strange and appears to have an output of 1920x2160 pixels! So not a 1080p sensor but a 2160p sensor! These are none square pixels of course! The camera thus DOES downsample from 2160 to 1080. This is what I can tell at any rate. There is a lot of confusion around photosites and pixels, so it's hard to get down to real factual information.

It's a bit of a moot point tho, the 1080p output of the camera probably is similar or even better in quality to that of a bayer 4K camera downsampled to 1080p.

Freya
 
JMtheDP said:
I just want to point out that Sony were making 3-chip 1080P CCD cameras in the 90s,
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My suspicion is that they weren't actually 1080p and that they just recorded 1080p if that, but hey I could be wrong if you have any models in mind?

and there was a 4K CCD camera in the "RED" sense from the early/mid 00s - called the DALSA ORIGIN. Now defunct, but it did exist.
.
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Now that is a VERY good point.
It does make you wonder if Dalsa weren't in contact with aliens back then! ;)

I think some of the problems with building high resolution CCD's way back may have stemmed from trying to cram so much onto small sensors too something we have since moved away from.

Freya
 
I believe the HDCAM standard was introduced in 1997, okay the tape format was 1440x1080 3:1:1, but the cameras were full 1080P units.

Early examples included the HDW-730, which led to the HDW-750 and most famously the F900 which actually debuted around 2000/2001 (used on Star Wars II).

There were other cameras that existed previously, although I can't remember any model names. There was an 1125-line "HD" standard at one point I believe.

I have an issue of American Cinematographer around here somewhere with a Sony/Panavision experimental camera that used basically a speedbooster that took PV lenses and put them onto 2/3" chips, giving proper 1080P. This article is from 1991.
 
Freya said:
I've done some more research into the Sony F35 sensor and theres very little info but it would appear from what I can tell that I am wrong on some points. The sensor is a bit strange and appears to have an output of 1920x2160 pixels! So not a 1080p sensor but a 2160p sensor! These are none square pixels of course! The camera thus DOES downsample from 2160 to 1080. This is what I can tell at any rate. There is a lot of confusion around photosites and pixels, so it's hard to get down to real factual information.

It's a bit of a moot point tho, the 1080p output of the camera probably is similar or even better in quality to that of a bayer 4K camera downsampled to 1080p.

Freya
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Actually, if you talk photosites, the Sony F35 sensor is 5760x2160. But horizontally, it's 1920 red, 1920 green, and 1920 blue sensor (1920x3=5760). Vertically it is 2160 (2x1080 = 2160). So, each pixel spot on the output is derived from 6 photosites: 2 red, 2 blue, 2 green. The vertical downsampling reduces noise.
 
JMtheDP said:
There were other cameras that existed previously, although I can't remember any model names. There was an 1125-line "HD" standard at one point I believe.
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NHK Color was a 1125 line standard back in the 1970s...

Also, today's 1080 line formats are actually 1125 lines total, with 1080 active lines. The rest are VANC.
 
The short film that I shot in March is mostly done (just one shot needs a little VFX work) and it's finally ready for festival submission. I have a temporary private online screener available for showing to cast/crew and for professional feedback. You can check it out here...

https://vimeo.com/95107161
the password is: texaco

It's not perfect and I can see hundreds of little things that I want to do better next time, but overall I'm pleased with the results. I figure as I do more of these my skill with shooting and lighting will get only better. It's a very different (but rewarding) process doing this in the real world and not in the computer.
 
Keith it looks great! Congrats. Lighting, camera, everything. Can't judge image quality though with the compressed lower resolution. Wish a 1080p version was available to see the F35 in all it's glory.

The scene inside the groceries store is very nice and filmic. My favorite from the whole movie.

What lens, f stop and ISO for the night exteriors, specially alleyway and the transfer scene?
 
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Thanks for the kind word, SJX. In order to keep the fests happy I am holding off on a 1080 version for now in order to maintain the appearance of not having distributed or released it online. Thus the password & 720p format. But I'll post some high quality stills later tonight after work.

Everything was shot sLog, Cine-EI, ISO 450. I didn't shoot in CUSTOM mode mainly because I didn't want to try something new while on the clock. So even though there is ostensibly some better noise control using CUSTOM, I decided to stick with what I knew for this one since I didn't have enough time to properly test the full workflow of a CUSTOM set up.

Lenses were the Rokinon Cine lenses (Nikon mount). 24, 35 and 85mm. Most of the exterior fStops were around f2, with the interiors being more like f3.5 or f4. The long oner was f2.8 to split the difference since it started indoors and ended up in the back alley. (Interesting factoid-- I did three different color grades on that one shot and cross faded between them at various points in order to keep things looking good. Was a fun problem to solve). The main overhead light in the back alley was a practical sodium vapor light. The back light was a 2k fresnel thru a 5x3 diffusion staged back around the corner. Those two lights were enough to do what I wanted. Even with the mixed color temps I felt it worked OK.

The indoor set ups I used an Alzo Pan-L 4x2 flo bank diffused and a 1k fresnel as a back light for the cashier. We turned off most of the overhead practical flos in the store but left the drink refrigerator lights on to get some depth. We added a bit of haze, which could have been monitored better for better consistency. I, too, was pretty pleased with how some of those interior single medium shots turned out. But I was also really displeased with how the master 2 shot looked. It was a mixed bag which I chalk up to learning. I know what to do better next time.

Overall I'm pleased with how the F35 with the fast Rokies handled this low budget night shoot. At no time did I find myself wishing for a more sensitive camera. I really like dark in an image. I find myself drawn to stuff like that (Gordon Willis' style was a definite inspiration, may he rest in peace).
 
I'm directing a featurette (short feature) in a couple of months, and I'm discussing the choice of camera with my DoP. Personally I'm not a big fan of the way Red MX renders colors, but he's afraid the F35 won't hold up well enough in low-light situations. We're shooting under controlled lighting conditions, but it's nevertheless going to be quite dark, and it might be necessary to pull the shadows a bit in post. Now, I know the Red is native 320 ISO (despite being marketed at 800 for highlight protection), that it looks like a complete mess at 1600 and that it looks decent with some blue-channel noise at 800. What I don't know, is exactly how beneficial it will be over the F35's 500 ISO. Has anyone seen any tests (other than the old Zacuto), or done any themselves?

I've been thinking about using a C300 as B-cam for the darkest shots, as I feel comfortable going all the way to 3200 on that. 8-bit is a pain, but fixed pattern noise is worse...
 
Match C300 will be pain in post! Believe me I have to do once. Not to RED or F35 but to F3. Pain!!!! Too different.
 
If you have some control of lighting, you should be fine with the F35. Get some fast lenses and ISO 400/500 is still plenty.
 
I was really beyond pleasantly surprised at how well the F35 held up in our micro-budget night shoot with fast glass. There is noise, but it's anything but "fixed pattern".
 
If you're worried about noisey shadows just add more ambient fill. Bounce an extra light off the ceiling or the back wall of whatever room you're in - redheads or even LED panels are great for that. You just add ambient fill and bring the shadows back down in post. It's a simple recipe, and it works a treat for any camera.
 
Yeah, Once Upon a Time in Anatolia is perhaps the most beautiful digitally shot film I've seen! The grain is quite present, but the colors are still superb.

I've actually organized for an underexposure test now. F35 vs Epic. Mind you, it won't be very scientific - just tailored to my immediate needs - but I'll make sure to share it with you.
 
Sounds great. Has anyone seen this?
https://vimeo.com/88834695
Comparing Kodak Vision200T to Red Dragon and 5Dmk3 ML.
The difference in skin tones from film to the two digital CMOS cameras is pronounced.
Does anyone really like grey skin?
 
mlysbakken said:
Yeah, Once Upon a Time in Anatolia is perhaps the most beautiful digitally shot film I've seen! The grain is quite present, but the colors are still superb.
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Did you pick up the Blu-ray? I find it fascinating that a film that premiered and won a grand prix at Cannes just 3 years ago, was shot on a camera that sells for the price of a prosumer camera today on ebay...
 
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