The DSLR panorama... and i need to choose

macgregor

macgregor

Veteran
Hello all.
For a SINGLE project coming on decemeber i´ll need a couple of HDSLRs. i can´t take a Red (i need to travel light) and i need 35mm DOF. I also need to shoot 24/25fps (30 is forbidden).

So this is the situation i´m facing:

- GH1: the samples i´ve seen are good but i didn´t have the chance of using it. Cons: i´d need to spend money on stupid micro4:3 lenses or buy an adapter to nikon (which one?). I´m a fan of MotionJpeg compression, but according to specs it´s limited to 720p30. So no chance. Maybe the European models feauture different specs? AVCHD compression seems too high, i can see artifacts everywhere. Skew is minimal and the LCD can be tilted. Good.

- Canon 7D: I´ve worked with footage shot on the canon. Low resolution. High compression. Hard to achieve real time on editing because of the h264 codec. Aliasing everywhere. I didn´t like it at all but right now seems like the smartest choice.

- Canon 5D: firmware still not available.

- Nikon D300s: I couldn´t find enough information about this camera. Is it exactly as bad as the nikon D90 video? Can i have FULL manual exposure control? Is the skew improved?

- Nikon D3s: looks fantastic even for being 720p when compared to the Canon cameras. Less aliasing and way better compression. BUt too expensive and not available yet.

- Any other models?



Notes: I have many Nikon and Canon Lenses, so there is no preferred choice for camera brand in that respect. I was waiting on the next D700s, 700x or D800, but there has not being any announcements yet. So they won´t be any available by the time i want to shoot this.
Probably after this shooting they will sell the bodies so i´m not interested in keeping them for the next 2-3 years.
I´ll need sound. I can either buy a microphone or an external recorder.
 
Well, your choices are pretty much the 7D, the GH1, or maybe the 1D Mark IV if it's out in time.

And you sum up what you like and don't like about them pretty well, your observations are pretty much spot-on.

A Canon or Nikon adapter for either camera is cheap enough; I think I spent like $30 on my Nikon adapter for the GH1, it works fine.

So... yeah. You've got a pretty good handle on the current state of DSLRs.

Not sure about the European GH1, whether its MJPG is 25fps or 30fps...
 
Mac, if you need to buy now i'd say the nikons are too far out to mess with.

as far as sound some people are using the beachtek but I've been getting better results with a separate sound recorder.

I don't know enough about the 7d to give a qualified response about that.
I have been using the GH1 on several projects lately that required me to move quickly and I'm quite fond of it. The compression is there. There are several things you can do to help the compression (like turning off auto mode) desaturated color pallets in camera also help. I also really like that you can put pl lenses right on it
GH1Optimo.jpg

Much easier to use but maybe not as lightweight at you want.
One thing that might drive you nuts is the iso in video mode is not accurate. It is generally much faster than the iso setting. But, you can see the histogram on screen if you wish while recording. The articulated lcd is really nice too.

Probably not too much info you didn't already know.
 
No info about Nikons?

Interesting question: what would show less compression artifacts on the GH1? 720p30 MJpeg or 1080p24 AVHC resampled to 720p?
 
Thanks Matt, the reason why we´re shooting with DSLRs is just to avoid PL lenses, but thanks for the picture! ;D

So i checked the European Panasonic site and MJpeg is constrained to 720p30. AVCHD offers 25p.
 
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In another thread someone mentioned that you can buy the body only from Europe or Japan (less kit lens) for $800ish. It'll be gray market but for $800 who cares. Might be a good choice if your going to go with other lenses anyway.
 
I'm sure you can find camera resellers in Japan through google, just make sure you order the ntsc body. Try to get one with english menu's.
 
A lot of people seem convinced that the 7D is better than the GH1 and some of us disagree. They both have ups and downs. If you've already used the 7D and don't like what you're seeing than I'd say for HDSLRS and your stated purpose, the GH1 is really your only choice at this moment, and also, that it isn't likely to let you down.
 
You said you need a couple of HDSLR's so why not just get both the GH1 and the 7D? Then if you have $$ for another look at the 5D. No matter what you choose there are going to be limitations that the other can make up for. Everybody has their own opinion on them but if you are able just cut out all the opinions and get them all.
 
Hahaha, that´s a pretty good idea actually if i could match them perfeclty, but also means more time CCing the footage.
 
Well in that case I would choose the GH1. Of course one could argue I am biased since I own one but I just couldn't imagine not using that flip out LCD. It allows me to get some crazy shots. As far as compression artifacts I really think if you spend some time with it and shoot it carefully you can get around that. Plus the 720p is much easier to shoot with if you are trying to get around that. The things I know about the 7D are second hand knowledge and strictly opinion based, not experience. From what I have seen the moire is unacceptable and the 720p mode is insanely bad. So what that says to me is that if you see a problem with the image you are left with less options to work around where as the GH1 has many more options.
So basically what you pointed out -
GH1
micro 4/3 lens - solution - cheap adapter like Barry said $30-$100
artifacts "mud" - solution - shoot 1080p for most things unless there is a lot of movement in a high detail shots. Switch to 720p mode and problem solved - Of course you could even push it further to MJPEG but it's 30p so you couldn't do it.

7D -
h264 codec - can't change
aliasing - I have read somewhere somebody tried to wrap cellophane over their lens to mask it but can you really see yourself doing this? I hope not. As far as I know... no work around besides some diffusing filter to mask it. I would have returned my GH1 if I thought the aliasing was unacceptable.

Now some other things to consider are the shot angles. I mean is this going to be a nature hike? I can think of a million reasons why the flip out LCD on the GH1 would make for some great shots. I mean I'm sure you could lay flat on the dirt while your 7D gets that great macro shot of the chipmunk eating a nut. Or if you wanted to rest your camera on a tree limb over your head you would just have to climb the tree so you could see what you were shooting. But me I would rather have the LCD facing me instead of me positioning my body into a painful potentially dangerous spot just so I could see what I was doing.

And now let the flames begin because every time this subject is brought up and somebody makes an opinion the camera police come out to defend their gear. Like I said... it is my opinion. Sheesh.
 
I'd say 800 but some people have gone higher and 400 would probably be a better rule, it depends on if you're going to be viewing the footage on the web, or projecting it, etc.

In terms of audio the DSLRs are in the same same boat, they all kind of suck. The GH1 has stereo, but the AGC can really screw you over. Dual system, or an external mike is the way to go. I find the GH1 and a Video-Mike can get pretty good audio for dialogue/interview kind of stuff.
 
ISO 400 I say is noiseless. You can push it higher but you will start to see it. I guess it depends on the purpose. With a faster lens you shouldn't have to go any higher really. Stock lens is another story. I recently did 800 for the short I did but I knew it was for the web and nobody was paying me.
Save yourself the trouble and don't think of audio on the HDSLR's at this time. I just found out from experience myself and it was a big hassle to clean it up and it was still bad in the end. As a sync reference sure but I would stay away from the on board audio on either one of them. Get a field recorder. I have an H4n which is great for the money. $350
 
Are you finishing in Vegas? I just tried out Neo Scene with my 7D and it gives me flawless real time in my XP-32 Quad (duo), even with as many as 4 effects, good FULL! It only costs $130. It also grades far better than it should have any right to! Check it out before making a choice. The only thing I would really regret about going 7D is the lack of a swivel screen, which if you are REALLY light you would love. Otherwise it might be useful to have a little LCD available for those shots when you can't line up your head without modifying camera placement. Don't forget about the LCDVF or Z-Finder. And consider going with lenses with stabilization, plus some sort of HH rig or you'll hate the jello. 0.02
 
Yes, i´m a Vegas fan. I do own Cineform Neo4K but i don´t use it. The codec degrades the image more than i´d like.
 
macgregor said:
buy an adapter to nikon (which one?).
Click to expand...

http://shop.ebay.com/ciecio7/m.html

I got the Canon FD adapter, excellent. Mate got the Nikon one, without the DX aperture bolt, also excellent.

You can check my siglink for GH1 footage in various situations including a commercial airing in Sweden right now.

Don't know if you've seen Barry Green's tech tests of both GH1 and 7D:

Resolution and aliasing test
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=187165

Dynamic range GH1
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=187624

Dynamic range 7D
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=187606

Those should really be stickies.
 
macgregor said:
Yes, i´m a Vegas fan. I do own Cineform Neo4K but i don´t use it. The codec degrades the image more than i´d like.
Click to expand...

I am glad to hear you say this. I thought it was just me. It is a shame... because it is blazing fast once converted. Vegas will puke on me and shut down way to often with h.264, a horrible experience aside from speed.

Are you getting good stability with V9c and H.264?
 
Well, so far i think 7D wins for these 2 reasons:
- autofocus and autoexposure with canon lenses (with Nikon+Gh1 i will always have to take care of both = more time to set up)
- 2nd hand price, i´m sure the 7D can sell for a lot more compared to the GH1 when i´m done with the project.
 
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