The Canon C500 question...

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vincent thomas

Well-known member
Well, a couple of questions here..

Considering it's in direct competition with the EPIC ( and futur Dragon sensor but we don't know for now) which will you decide to go for it instead of the Epic.

- Be able to shot professional result in almost a nude configuration is what i like in this cam, but is it really to be the case?

- How the image quality is going to stand out from the rest?

- For such an expansive cam and considerating the politic of Red to protect your investment by offering path sensor upgrade, don't you think Canon should REALLY offer the same?

-Finally last missing information... What about the sensor compared to the C300? Could i expect something better and 13 stops of Dynamic range like with the BMC?


vincent*


__________________________________________________________
Vincent Thomas
VFX Lead Artist (Available in 2 weeks)/ Director & Cinematographer
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
http://www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr/
___________________________________________________________
 
Epic is a lovely camera. C500 is a superb camera. The C500 should give you great service for the next 5 years. What more do you want? This is not a DSLR that it will change every one and half years. And 5 years assumption means that every body would be using 4K for viewing as well. We don't even have Full HD in all the places (1080p). I get requests for HD nature stock footage and by HD they mean 720p. Forget about the 1080p or even 2K.

I feel whether it is 4k or 5K or 6K, it is all incremental at this point of time and doesn't really make any difference. So whether RED is going for Dragon sensor upgrade or not shouldn't matter to non RED owners. It should matter to the EPIC owners, as it is hoped to give higher resolution as well as better noise. And as far as high ISO performance, Canon is second to none. I had been considering EPIC but I read some reports especially that of Philip Bloom who talked about the noise performance of EPIC being bad. I have no reason not to believe an experienced person like Philip Bloom.

In EPIC, you can get AF with your canon lenses. Not everybody needs AF. However, it is nice to have especially in wildlife filming.

Cost of EPIC is much more. It is virtually double that of the C500. That is something to seriously consider. Despite the 6K USD sensor upgrade, why not buy a camera which is half the price. When spending one's hard earned money, it is not an easy decision.

Canon is now known for its image quality and that "look". No doubt about it. Both the cameras give you RAW and you can decide which ever workflow works the best for you.

I am not sure for what purpose you are using it. However, if you are using it for wildlife, I would love to have the barebones configuration. When you are chased by an elephant, certainly you don't want your equipment to weigh you down. Of course, you can try to remove a few parts and throw at the elephant to distract it before you can escape. :) Each part costs several thousand dollars. :D However, there are some guys filming wildlife with the EPIC and doing a fantastic job. Just that each person has to choose the equipment according to his style.

Canon is seriously getting into this game with some fantastic cameras and lenses. The future looks good. Both the C500 and EPIC are great cameras. Choose which ever you like after a test drive. At this point I am getting more integrated into the Canon world. All the Best!
 
After reading it's specs on B&H, am I correct in saying that it cannot record 4k on-board and that it must use an external recorder? That's a biggie.
 
What I love about the C500 (on paper, at least) is the 1080p 4:2:2 onboard. It's a C300 with the option to go 4K when the job requires. RED missed a trick there, god only knows how well they would be doing if they had launched the 2K/1080p ProRes module that everyone was screaming for.
 
William_Robinette said:
After reading it's specs on B&H, am I correct in saying that it cannot record 4k on-board and that it must use an external recorder? That's a biggie.
Click to expand...
That is my understanding, yes. Onboard it's a 1080p video camera, but through the use of an external recorder you could get 4K raw.
 
Yes, if you want to do 4K, you have to get a recorder. Canon has partnered with Codex, S-Two, Astro, AJA, and Convergence Design. From what I'm hearing here in town, AJA & Convergence's Gemini are the ones the key DP's are focusing on.....partly because they are small and can easily be mounted on the back of the camera rig using rods, a cheese plate, etc.
As for the chip/sensor, The C500/C300's 4K chip has already proved to be the low light champ out there as well as the ability to handle both bright & dark in the same shot and get them both right. Also, the camera is ready right out of the box with out having to buy (other than the recorder) a bunch of accessories.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
There is some good information on the C series on this "Canon Learning Center" site. There is a white paper on the C300 & C500 sensor, codecs, and data flow in the camera, and the Canon Log Gamma:

http://learn.usa.canon.com/dlc/article/video_knowledge_base/knowledgebase.spr


I don't know why the site is so "buried" from the main Canon web. Here are the product pages on teh main web sit, with detailed specs, etc.

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/cinema_eos_cameras


Best,
Michael
 
Interesting, thanks for the clarification guys.

I think it's interesting what people compare in cameras nowadays. I see this as a camera that shares much more with the Alexa over EPIC. Onboard 4:2:2 codec that is lightweight with the option to go RAW out the back. I wonder how many people are actually going to purchase an external recorder and shoot 4k RAW. And to that extent I think that $30,000 is a bit steep for a 1080P 4:2:2 to a long-GOP codec camera. I'm sure the image will be pretty, however.

Since the question was asked, I think the largest asset EPIC brings to the table is REDCODE. To this day I think people greatly underrate how lightweight and easy RED has made working with RAW at crazy resolutions. To that end I think by leaving that onboard ability off the camera is why the C500 can use super cheap and small batteries and probably won't have a problem with heat or long runtimes. For many situations that is a huge deal breaker. Looking at it the other way around - for a more cinema style shoot (takes under 5-minutes) I still enjoy working RED and raw from the get-go.

Great option to rent though, can't wait to shoot with one - especially when it gets dark.

*Edit to add - That half-res 120fps is a bit of a downer. And that you can only record out the back, right?
 
well, when I read "1080p onboard, 4K with external recorder" I thought of the FS700, which is 1/4 the price and can shoot 1080p at insane framerates

(I do know that image is much, much, much more than just specs, but since specs is all we have...)
 
Well yes, the F700 has good specs and i was exited at first.. Until i saw the images...

One mistake Canon did for me is not to be able to swap the mount EF to PL with the same body. I find hard to believe it was not possible to make it happen...



Samuel H said:
well, when I read "1080p onboard, 4K with external recorder" I thought of the FS700, which is 1/4 the price and can shoot 1080p at insane framerates

(I do know that image is much, much, much more than just specs, but since specs is all we have...)
Click to expand...
 
Also keep in mind the Ana ki pro quad does not record 4k raw only prores. It can pass the raw through to a thunderbolt jack but then u are adding another device again :(
 
Jim Martin said:
From what I'm hearing here in town, AJA & Convergence's Gemini are the ones the key DP's are focusing on....
Filmtools.com
Click to expand...
Does the AJA have support for half RAW at 120fps? Certainly, you need two Geminis to capture that rate, which is a shame, becasue it would be a great solution if it did.

Jim Martin said:
the camera is ready right out of the box with out having to buy (other than the recorder) a bunch of accessories.
Click to expand...
Only if you want to shoot 1080p 4:2:2 up to to 30fps. Which makes it the same as a C300, only significantly more expensive and without the nice grip handle.
 
I was hinting at the RED cameras....which require a lot of add-ons....Scarlet at $10K but a working package is more in the $16-20K range....The C500 has the 4K & 120fps turned on...

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
I was using the Scarlet as an example for having to buy a lot more stuff....the same applies to the Epic ($60K+) which is a more direct comparison to the C500.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
Perhaps I'm a bit confused here.

With Epic, you get 5K and 96FPS. No external recorder needed. At 4K, you get 120FPS. With the C500 you have the option to record 4K to an external recorder, but at what frame rates? Are you limited to 60FPS in 4K via the SDI output? Can you get 120FPS?

And as far as the costs go, saying you need $60K for Epic is, to say the least, an exaggeration. Buying from the RED store, you can get complete, ready-to-shoot Epic configurations for well less than that. Like…
http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-x-gunner-collection
…which even includes a handheld setup. The "add-ons" are completely dependent on how each operator/owner prefers to shoot, but you can get into Epic for a lot less than $60K.
 
Yeah I got a shooting scarlet kit that fits my needs for under 13k(14.5k if you include my laptop but that shouldn't count... needed one anyway, but it does allow me to edit and color in raw, and still manage relatively quick renders out of resolve and after effects), but I did order before the price increase and saved a significant amount of money.

It all depends on what you are going to shoot and how, to each their own, and as far as I can tell these camera's come from two different kinds of thinking and shooting so the choice should be easy as long as you know what you want and need, or are willing to put up with. Camera's are a series of compromises, most likely always will be, it's about picking the compromises you can live with.

Have a good one!
 
To me, after further thinking, i realized i feel more attracted by the 1DC which apparently has more dynamic range and is full frame. After i will ever consider the c300 or a Scarlet/epic second hand...
And at the moment, i more tented to go for the 1DC or a second Scarlet.


__________________________________________________________
Vincent Thomas
VFX Supervisor / Lead Artist / Director & Cinematographer
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
http://www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr/
 
Something its still not clear for me... Is the Canon 1dc able to record 4k at full frame> It hought it was able to but i just found an early post saying in this case, it switch to a APS size sensor... Someone know?

v*
 
vincent thomas said:
Something its still not clear for me... Is the Canon 1dc able to record 4k at full frame> It hought it was able to but i just found an early post saying in this case, it switch to a APS size sensor... Someone know?

v*
Click to expand...

1D C can shoot at 4k using an APS - H sized sensor (that is the same as the Canon EOS 1D, 1DII, 1D III, 1D Mark IV camera sensor size). It has option to shoot at Full HD (1920*1080) either using Full frame or an APS-C sized (Super 35mm) portion of the sensor. Some details here: http://www.indiawilds.com/diary/wildlife-filming-at-4k-lenses-for-canon-eos-1d-c/
 
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